Forensic Scientists reveal what Jesus may have looked like as a 12-year old

Catholic News Agency ^ | February 12, 2005

[Agrarian]

I have no desire to get into a deep "Shroud" discussion (perhaps they have already happened, and I wasn't around), but I'm not so sure how important it is to the Orthodox. Unlike the multitude of other holy objects of veneration, there is no feast day to commemorate it. There is no entry in any of our Synaraxia or other books discussing the history of the preservation and veneration of the Shroud. There are no hymns anywhere in our service books that talk about its veneration.

There are Orthodox who believe that it is genuine, and those who believe that it is not. I have personally only heard one thing that is convincing at all, and that is the argument that the Orthodox tradition of having a tapestry with an icon of Christ (the epitaphios), which is then taken in procession in Holy Week, may be the remnant of the veneration of the Shroud itself.

And yet, given the flowering of hymnology throughout the Byzantine era, one would have expected that if the Shroud was being so venerated, the hymnology surrounding this would have grown to include specific discussions and reflections on having the actual Shroud of Christ. Every other holy object of veneration -- from the True Cross to the Cincture of the Theotokos -- has this richness of tradition. If the veneration of the Shroud was a living reality, it is inexplicable to me that the silence in our Church's hymnology and writings would be so deafening.

Perhaps Kolokotronis can comment from the Greek perspective -- I may be ignorant of a crystal-clear and well-documented tradition in the Orthodox Church.

[Vicomte13]

Some Marian apparitions, such as those at Lourdes or Fatima, have more substance to them than others, certainly.

Obviously if God wishes to reach people in this way, or through Joan of Arc's voices and the like, we aren't going to be able to stop Him from doing so, embarassing though it may be.

[RobRoy]

If it is indeed Him.

[Vicomte13]

"If it is indeed Him."

That's always the question, isn't it?

To me, there is compelling evidence about Lourdes - all of those thousands of medical files.

On the other hand, when Mary starts showing up in dried cheese sandwiches on e-Bay, I start to have crippling doubts. I suppose even that COULD be God's work, but if it is, I'm afraid He's not going to convince me that way...well, unless I was the one eating the sandwich, I suppose...

[RobRoy]

I will be pretty blunt here: If a miracle has no practical value (Healing, opportunity, deflecting a meteor), it is not of the God of the Bible.

Can you name one miracle from the Word of God that had no practical purpose besides, arguably, the fig tree? If you can, I will reconsider my position.

BTW, I have experienced thre bona-fide miracles in my life, so I do believe they exist.

[Vicomte13]

Here are a few that I think are pure theatrics:

- Moses' snake staff eating the Egyptian snake staves.
- The plague of frogs: merely annoying.
- Lot's wife and the Pillar of Salt.
- The oil in the lamp of the Temple just keeps on a-burnin' (origin of Chanukka)
- God tells Moses to look at His BACK, so that Moses won't die...but other times men see God and live.
- The laming of Jacob by the wrestler in the cave.
- "The bad-news bears" : A bunch of bears come out of the woods and devour the children who made fun of Elisha's bald head.
- Jesus walking on the water
- Jesus and the fig tree

I can think of more if I put my mind to it, but those are off the top of my head.

On the other hand, when I look at the miracles of the saints, I see them having practical value.

The Marian apparition at Lourdes resulted in the discovery of the spring at which tens of thousands have been healed by faith. Also, it shows that God favors the veneration of His Mother. Seems both practical and instructive to me.

Joan of Arc's voices told her precisely the weaknesses in the English lines, and allowed her, an untrained woman, to inflict five successive defeats on an English Army that had routinely trounced the French for 140 straight years, rolling up the entire English position in France and re-establishing the French monarchy in two short years. Pretty practical and dramatic.

The Burial Shroud of Jesus, if the Shroud of Turin is it, immediately and powerfully announces the Resurrection in a way that an empty tomb does not. And down to our day, when science has been turned against faith, the fact that science finds unfolding mystery after mystery in the Shroud, and astonishingly cannot explain the image there, results in an opening of minds hermetically sealed by an excessive reliance on logic so closed that faith has no hope of penetrating. Again, this seems to be a pretty profound practical effect. At least that is the effect the Shroud has had on ME.

[RobRoy]

I want to respond but I am in the middle of a presentation that I have to get finished today. You make some good points that I will give you, and others that I will argue against. I'll get back when I have some time.

[Vicomte13]

Whenever is convenient to you.
My objective is not to argue, really, so much as to share viewpoints, and perhaps defend myself against the charge that folks who believe in such things are "superstitious". I'm more scientific than superstitious, I think.

[Vicomte13]

Whenever is convenient to you.
My objective is not to argue, really, so much as to share viewpoints, and perhaps defend myself against the charge that folks who believe in such things are "superstitious". I'm more scientific than superstitious, I think.

[Kolokotronis]

"Perhaps Kolokotronis can comment from the Greek perspective -- I may be ignorant of a crystal-clear and well-documented tradition in the Orthodox Church."

I am unaware of anything in Orthodoxy which speaks to the Shroud save a recent article by the uncanonical "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" which apparently came up with some troparia for a joint service with the Uniates. The article was very "in your face" to the MP. I seem to remember that there was some interest in the Shroud in Russian Orthodox circles and there is an alleged sermon by an Archdeacon from Constantinople in the 10th century which refers to the Shroud. It should be noted that the Shroud of Turin is alleged to have been the Shroud of Edessa. At one point there were 43 alleged shrouds kicking around the East. Personally, I hope its real.

[Cronos]

And while both the Western and the Eastern churches still have dogmatic issues to settle, I'm glad we're removing the political issues -- one thing us Catholics need to emphasise (and I think the present Pope is doing a good job on this issue) is that the Pope is but the first among equals amongs the Patriarchate -- trying to establish dominion over the Eastern Churches has led to a lot of (justified) antagonism over the centuries.

[Cronos]

As for the issues of imperial papacy, purgatory, Immaculate Conception and infallibility of the Pope (in matters ex-cathedra only), I am less optimistic.

I won't talk about the 2nd and third issues, but I do believe that the first issue is being resolved -- the present pope has emphasised the equality of the patriarchates with the patriarchate in rome -- though this needs to be reflected in the mindsets of all levels of the church! The last issue, I do think the infallibility of the Pope is purely related to dogmatic issues pronounced ex-cathedra and tradition would state that this would be only exercised after receiving wisdom from the Holy Spirit along with the other church elders

[monkfan]

Out of curiosity, has anyone on this thread expressed a Modalist view?

No, not yet. But you've got the pole position, so go for it.

[Cronos]

I have many friends that look at "Christians" flocking to "mary aparitions" as proof that Christianity is pure superstition.

I would agree to some extent with Rob Roy -- while these events CAN be a source of wonder at the power of God, these are not, and CANNOT be the central tenets or reasons for our faith. Do I consider that my faith depends on whether the Shroud is true or false? No. Do I wish to curtail people who wish to believe in these things? No. One can tell people, but ultimately it is their own will, their own choice

[SQUID]

I hope we can move past that. We all have to realize that there are forces in this world that are working very hard every single day to dilute, convert, intimidate, change, confuse, kill, reduce, disrupt and DIVIDE Christians.

We must move toward brotherhood.

[Havoc]

Brotherhood starts with the message, not with "getting along".
While I have to give kudos for the sentiment, it is misplaced.
Christiainity is not about getting along - it is about having the right message. If you don't have that, you have nothing - period. And unity with perverse messages just means you walk into hell together.. that is the sentence for false teaching - remember. Let's not lose site of the truth in the mutual good will society.

As for the commentary about the shroud, let's not forget, a certain king broke a certain staff when people started venerating it in the Old testament stories. We're pretty far afield these days of merely venerating a staff, we got people venerating mountains of things while clergy and laity look on - condoning it, profiting from it, you name it. People may have all sort of rationalizations for it; but, scripturally, it's wrong and with numerous examples to look to.. that goes right along with my warning re: message.

People are looking at the wrong things. And this is what we were warned about over and over by the Apostles - among other things. Message, message, message. Peace peace peace can go out the window, window, window. Christ said I came not to bring piece; but, a sword. And that is exactly what the truth does, it divides and enrages those who will not cling to it. If a man is your enemy because of the truth then your friend because of the truth is a friend indeed.

[Kolokotronis]

You know, at some point we should take on the purgatory thing, since it is filled with divergent theology. On the other hand, and this is just a minimally informed speculation on my part, could it be that the purgatory idea stems from the idea that God's love is like a stream of fire which enraptures those who have gained a degree of theosis while it burns into torment those who have not. There's a magnificent icon of the Final Judgment which shows this quite graphically but I can't seem to find one that's any good to post. Here's a try. I think if you look close you can see the River of Fire.

[kosta50]

Thank you, as always. Your fairness and courage is always inspiring. The authenticity of the Shroud is not yet fully established although i believe most of us hope that it proves to be that of our Lord and Savior. As Kolo and Agrarian point out, it has not been the subject of Orthodox hymnology. If there was any reason to strongly believe it is genuine, the East would have had some reference to it.

While it is proper for such relics, and others, that have been removed from their original locations, to be returned to those original locations out of sense of justice and good will, without any fear that they leave the Church, but rather stay in her bosom, I am not sure than any relics -- including the recently returned ones -- are safe in Constantinople. The Greek Christian community there is shrinking and numbers only a couple of thousand souls, surrounded by an officially secular but nonetheless Muslim country (let's not forget that Kosovo Albanians consider themselves secular -- that fact by itself didn't stop them from destroying or damaging over one hundred Kosovo's centuries old and irreplaceable art of Christian shrines there).

Such relics and treasures of our Christian past should be in the safest possible place. The Shroud itself survived several fires, but why tempt the fate?

[kosta50]

Kolo, the Orthodox view of the "fire" is that of the Spirit, not the fire that burns you to death but one that fires you up to life in which those, who are in the image of Christ shine like gold does in furnace, while those who are clay and godless darken and harden. Remember, Orthodoxy is about compassion and mercy, about Life; hell is something we choose, and hellfire is a different fire from the fire of the Holy Spirit, the Life-giver.