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To: Modernman

IVF "ingredients" aren't created out of thin air. They're real sperm and real eggs. That's why the Church still recognizes the presence of a soul. Actual conception takes place, but not in the way intended by God (which is why it's forbidden to Catholics).

If I can take a pile of dung and use it to engineer sperm, it's not conception. Therefore, there is no soul.


50 posted on 02/09/2005 2:17:02 PM PST by Rutles4Ever (This is my tagline.)
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To: Rutles4Ever

"If I can take a pile of dung and use it to engineer sperm, it's not conception. Therefore, there is no soul."

Read the article again. Although the engineered sperm is technically artificial, it is engineered using the parent's DNA. Meaning, that it has essentially the same structure and purpose as naturally created sperm.


57 posted on 02/09/2005 2:19:37 PM PST by Chiapet
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To: Rutles4Ever
If I can take a pile of dung and use it to engineer sperm, it's not conception. Therefore, there is no soul.

Do you honestly believe that any Christian (or Judaic) denomination will come to the conclusion that these children do not qualify for salvation? AFAIK, no Judeo-Christian group considers the way a child was conceived as being in any way relevant to that child's status as a full human being.

63 posted on 02/09/2005 2:21:48 PM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
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To: Rutles4Ever; Modernman
If I can take a pile of dung and use it to engineer sperm, it's not conception. Therefore, there is no soul.

I really hope you are not a pastor or priest.

The source of molecules which form a spermatozoon have no bearing on the humanity of a person produced by that spermatozoon.

If manure is used to fertilize a garden, and a man eats vegetables from the garden, then some of the molecules in that man's body will once have been dung. This does not mean that a spermatozoon built with molecules which were once part of the dung will produce a baby which is not human.

In the same way, the source of the molecules in an artificial spermatozoon is irrelevant. If the sperm carries human DNA, and fertilizes an egg carrying human DNA, then the embryo so produced will be human--designed to mature into a living, breathing, thinking human being. What else could he or she be?

Your line of reasoning is both flawed and frightening.

76 posted on 02/09/2005 2:32:11 PM PST by TigerTale ("I don't care. I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me.")
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To: Rutles4Ever
If I can take a pile of dung and use it to engineer sperm, it's not conception. Therefore, there is no soul.

But it is genetic material. Conception is the not the uniting of sperm and egg, but of the DNA that is part of them. The rest of the sperm and egg is material for carrying the DNA.

98 posted on 02/09/2005 3:18:09 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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