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To: Jaysun
Popper's method would be a great start - and the scientific method in general.

Great! Show me an example of an Intelligent Designer (no humans, no animals and no plants) at work. Not in the way of saying 'Oh, look that is IC therefore ID'. No I want an testable case to show ID. Historical records won't count as a scientific example. ToE is an ongoing process but ID is a one time occurrence. So I want an occurrence.
If you need IC and you got nothing else we can start with decomposing IC.


Bacterial multi resistances to antibiotics is one prediction.

Fair enough. I hadn't considered that because I didn't know that it was a prediction. Who predicted that?


Oooooooh? The ToE? An other prediction is about herbicide resistant plants used in agriculture. The companies selling this plants claim you need less but stronger herbicide (Mostly they sell resistant seed and the proper herbicide). From ToE you can derive the claim if some weeds survive you will need more and more herbicide to fight against the more and more resistant weeds. Ask your nearest farmer who uses seeds from Monsanto.

Natural selection eliminates (the black moths didn't evolve, they were already here) it doesn't create.

Correct! I think you are coming on the right scientific track.

The only thing we're left with is mutation.

Nearly there!
But you are a little bit mixed up between breeding (men made selection) and mutation and mutation itself.
Mutation inside a grown body may cause cancer but not always. Against this kind of mutation our body has a defense system because those cells didn't work any longer for the body. Mutation inside an egg cell must be a slight one. You got no body control system because there is no body. Is the mutation as great as in a cancer cell you want get an embryo.

From a ToE view point cancer at old ages is acceptable due to a higher possible rate of mutation.

1) Axiom: No mutation happen.
Breeding without mutation would therefor not enable dogs especially Chihuahua.
=>Therefore mutation exists.

2) Axiom: Mutation is not always bad.
Cows that give more milk.
Wheat with more seed/grain.
And maybe some AIDS resistant people.
(Experiment ongoing in Africa)</evilest sarcasm>


We got selection and we got mutation. What else do you need for a biological evolution?
2,235 posted on 02/16/2005 3:53:25 AM PST by MHalblaub (Tell me in four more years (No, I did not vote for Kerry))
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To: MHalblaub
Great! Show me an example of an Intelligent Designer (no humans, no animals and no plants) at work. Not in the way of saying 'Oh, look that is IC therefore ID'. No I want an testable case to show ID. Historical records won't count as a scientific example. ToE is an ongoing process but ID is a one time occurrence. So I want an occurrence. If you need IC and you got nothing else we can start with decomposing IC.

You're dodging the question. Does evolution stand up to Popper's method and the scientific method in general, or doesn't it? Creation is irrelevant to the question.

Oooooooh? The ToE? An other prediction is about herbicide resistant plants used in agriculture. The companies selling this plants claim you need less but stronger herbicide (Mostly they sell resistant seed and the proper herbicide). From ToE you can derive the claim if some weeds survive you will need more and more herbicide to fight against the more and more resistant weeds. Ask your nearest farmer who uses seeds from Monsanto.

I asked you who predicted bacterial multi resistances to antibiotics and you said, "Oooooooh? The ToE?"
???????????
A prediction, by it's very nature, takes place before the event being predicted.

Nearly there!
But you are a little bit mixed up between breeding (men made selection) and mutation and mutation itself. Mutation inside a grown body may cause cancer but not always. Against this kind of mutation our body has a defense system because those cells didn't work any longer for the body. Mutation inside an egg cell must be a slight one. You got no body control system because there is no body. Is the mutation as great as in a cancer cell you want get an embryo.

From a ToE view point cancer at old ages is acceptable due to a higher possible rate of mutation.

1) Axiom: No mutation happen.
Breeding without mutation would therefor not enable dogs especially Chihuahua.
=>Therefore mutation exists.

2) Axiom: Mutation is not always bad.
Cows that give more milk.
Wheat with more seed/grain.
And maybe some AIDS resistant people.
(Experiment ongoing in Africa)


I'm not sure what your point is here, and it's hard for me to understand some of your wording. Nevertheless, I'll try to answer you. That there are dogs, big and small, doesn't indicate that the kind of mutation necessary to prove evolution. They're still dogs - all of them - and men have been breeding dogs, and lots of other animals, to change their traits for a long time. There are many breeds of pigeons, cattle, horses, dogs, etc., but they are all pigeons, cattle, horses, dogs, etc. Recombination of existing genes can produce enormous variety within a kind, but the variation is limited by the genes present.

It is possible for mutation to generate new varieties with traits which are improved from man's point of view (shorter wheat plants, different protein quality, low levels of toxins). The trait is not due to the appearance of a new protein but the modification of an existing one, even when it seems to be a new trait (such as herbicide resistance).

We got selection and we got mutation. What else do you need for a biological evolution?

Natural selection and mutation can only account for variation within a kind, not evolution. Neither can provide a method by which a jellyfish can evolve eyes and a backbone to become a fish (for example).
2,237 posted on 02/16/2005 5:09:58 PM PST by Jaysun (Nefarious deeds for hire.)
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