Don't help, Border Patrol says

www.azstarnet.com/Online service of The Arizona Daily Star ^ | 1/30/05 | AZ Ranger's Wifey

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

Sector Chief Michael Nicley said volunteers who try to patrol the area could hinder operations and draw away Border Patrol agents from priorities if they encounter problems.

The Minuteman Project, headed by Jim Gilchrist in California, plans to bring volunteers in April for a monthlong air and ground patrol of Cochise County.

The 83 miles of Cochise County's border with Mexico are among the busiest for apprehending illegal immigrants.

Nicley said he has concerns about the air operations being proposed by the Minuteman Project since part of the airspace in Cochise County is earmarked for the Border Patrol.

Also, Nicley said the project's volunteers are not trained in law enforcement.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

Who (pray tell) even said I would waste one more word on you? I would quote a statement made by our Vice President not too long ago, but I think that would be a violation of the rules here on Freepers. In short you may waste as many bytes as you would like, and "pucker up buttercup" cause the south end of my northbound person is what you can smooch.
Fondly,
Wifey

[Iron Eagle]

I think your concerns and thoughts are to be greatly considered and appreciated. You are truly on the front lines. On the other hand, of course, the 15 million illegals that pass through usually head for other destinations. In fact one small town in New Jersey -- a town of 10 thousand, has an estimated illegal alien population of 4 thousand now occupying that town. That is just one small town some 3000 miles from the entry point.

It is from that frustration that Americans are trying to do something to stop the silent and devastating invasion. Make no mistake about it, when 4 illegal foreign Nationals move to your small town -- and the government will not help you, it is an invasion.

It is against that back drop that individuals are hell bent to do something. I agree that converging in an area with guns drawn can make temperatures rise and lead to problems, but I also believe that this illegal alien problem can not simply be ignored or resigned to writing letters to the editor.

For the millions of American who foolishly believe they are not impacted by the silent invasion, or for the scores more who profit from it, it is time that they be exposed to the truth. Illegal immigration hurts this country -- it destroys communities. It drives all wages down and social costs up, and it makes it harder for law abiding immigrants to come to this country.

It is time to stop the silent invasion, and it appears some have decided to do so by making some noise.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

So why aren't YOU doing it in Washington?

Perhaps because I am old and retired and do not have the numbers that it may take to really attract the necessary attention. I have done my share of faxes, letters, phone conversations and actually going up to Kolbe's offices in this county. I represent a group of citizens, but with the assistance of the Minutemen and people from the entire nation perhaps that would give all of those efforts the extra attention and responses that we all would like to see.

Did any of you watch O'Reilly last night? Did you happen to see the people being loaded up into the white and green trucks, that was the Border Patrol taking illegal aliens into custody.

The remarks that the Border Patrol DOES not arrest them were proved to be totally false by those film clips.

[sasafras]

Oh I guess we should just be little sheep and do nothing. Yeah I like that lets all just hold hands on the border and sing kum by ya - but make sure we do it really loud so that they will hear us and run away.

We have looked the other way for too long because people like you were afraiiiiiiiiid. Time to wake up and hear the citizens - were pissed off at the fact that our govt. is doing nothing to stop this invasion and some of us are willing to sacrifice our liberty and security for principles which others have died for - time you quit acting like a scared female rabbit and start supporting the men and women who are protecting your liberties by risking their lives, voluntarily, in this effort.

[sasafras]

Oh I guess we should just be little sheep and do nothing. Yeah I like that lets all just hold hands on the border and sing kum by ya - but make sure we do it really loud so that they will hear us and run away.

We have looked the other way for too long because people like you were afraiiiiiiiiid. Time to wake up and hear the citizens - were pissed off at the fact that our govt. is doing nothing to stop this invasion and some of us are willing to sacrifice our liberty and security for principles which others have died for - time you quit acting like a scared female rabbit and start supporting the men and women who are protecting your liberties by risking their lives, voluntarily, in this effort.

[Spiff]

Well it's my opinion (and some of our group would even be willing to join in the protest, if it were being done in Washington instead of down here). Our area is obviously not a priority in Washington, but if the Minutemen wanted to really make a difference perhaps they could do so if they took their numbers and protests directly to the people who CAN make a difference.

I understand your concerns about Gilchrist and the Minuteman Project. Actually, I share some of them and I'm not convinced that their effort here will have any real benefit. But it might. Of course, then, it might end up with a shootout or some other tragedy we don't need down here. I'm standing back and taking a 'wait and see' attitude with the whole thing.

You suggest a protest would be better in Washington, DC. But in DC protests are a dime a dozen. People have rallies and protests there almost every week. Thousands show up. Do you hear much about them? Do they make much of a difference? Arizona is a hotspot for people who are fed up will the border invasion. You will get more people together here than you'll ever get together in DC given the distance and travel cost. Yet, despite widespread community concern over the issue, few show up even at local protests and rallies. Some might claim that people aren't that concerned about the issue then but they would be wrong given the results of polls take locally and especially given the success of Proposition 200.

Gilchrist has proven one thing and that is he's an excellent promoter capable of getting himself and his message on news show after news show. He's received widespread news coverage for this project. Now, if the project turns into an armed redneck militia thing, it will fail and will hurt our cause. If he succeeds in having people from every state, carrying their state flags, and doing a couple of border-related activities but mostly just trying to make an intelligent, carefully crafted point, that would be good. It could go either way. I've talked to Gilchrist on a number of occasions and I don't know for sure how this thing is going to come off. But, it's going to happen whether you or I like it or agree with it. The train is out of the station and Gilchrist and his people are going to show up here. All the complaining about it on Free Republic isn't going to change that and may only serve to undermine any good that may come from the project.

In the meantime, we've got Rep. Jim Kolbe showing up later this month. Maybe instead of getting into flamewars on internet forums we should be getting together and planning effective protests against Kolbe's amnesty legislation and his overall dereliction of duty in regards to the border. The last protest we had against him that I put together set the stage for the strong challenge that was made against him in the Primary election. I think we could refine the message of the protest, coordinate with the media better, and really hit Kolbe hard this time around. But we need everyone concerned about this issue there despite some of the differences we may have on some of the related issues. Is this something you could support? It may accomplish more than the flamewars you're getting into here.

[television is just wrong]

LOL, then the Federal government needs to become more effective. We protect borders all over the planet, yet we cannot afford to care for our own.

If it wasn't so pathetic, it would be humorous.

[jmc813]

I believe if you are armed, and an Federal employee approaches you and asks that you should not lie to them.

And I believe it is none of their damned business. The VAST majority of FReepers consider federal firarms laws to be repugnant to the Constitution and therefore moral to ignore. Using examples of Minutemen breaking these laws is not going to convince any freepers to change their opinion.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

I do not agree with them wasting their monies, efforts and "risking their lives" to protect (?) me. I have enough guns to protect myself and home, and I carry them legally according to the laws of Arizona and the Federal Gov. THE FIRST THING I say to a Federal Agent when they come onto my property is that I am armed. They tend to dislike surprise concealed weapons or people who lie about having them.

If they (the Minutemen) wanted to make a difference they would take their protest where the Government HAS to notice them! They will not get as much attention down here as they hope, they will not make any grand difference.

Speaking from past experiences when they become bored with "their mission" they tend to wander where they are NOT welcome. Groups like this have come onto private property (that is usually avoided by most illegal aliens) because some of them actually do read the signs that are posted on our property lines and fences down here.

We do not support these groups of Californian led vigilantes (and no chance of changing our minds on that until and unless this group should direct their efforts to the politicians in Washington). Some of us and our properties and livestock have been literally devastated by the "un-official good guys" with four wheelers and injuries to livestock and other annoying things that may seem minor to you, but have become tiresome, expensive and extraneous to us. As it stands now, nothing has been resolved with this thread.

Your group is no wiser, mine is no happier. I think I will fly to Florida, so I don't have to watch the carnage here. My property? If I do leave, it will be occupied by people I can trust, and I will be back in time to see some of you in court.

It appears that the Minutemen and their supporters here would even go so far as to challenge my gender (cheap shot, and I don't have to show you mine to prove anything). Perhaps if you wanted to know more about the poster BryanP, you should go to his blog, it's pretty interesting, just another perspective to show you that some of the Minutemen would lie when the truth hurts them. They do not want you to know the truth about Mr. Gilchrist's e-mail exchange with BryanP because the version that he posted on the MMP web page is "doctored" and falsified to bolster Jim GilCHRIST's agenda.

I will be on my way to Phoenix this afternoon, to ask for help for our local residents during this planned invasion. I am going to rattle chains about the invasion instead of the problem, because right now the impending armed invasion of Minutemen is OUR problem. The illegal aliens have always been a problem (since I can remember) but when you add people who may cause a danger to Citizens of Cochise County and their property, you only add to "the real problem". It would be really bad if the Government is here to regulate you all while the illegals continue to do what they do anyway. If that should become the case, what have you solved and who have you saved with all of the hubbub? Nothing and nobody.

The only way to get Washington's attention is to lower THEIR comfort level, not ours! I may be busy for the next few days I can seldom make the Phoenix trip in just one day, so please feel free to talk amongst yourselves until I can get back...

B4, I am getting there. I have not forgotten about you! :-)

[Lazamataz]

Either ENFORCE THE LAW or vigilante groups WILL.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

Congratulations at least you have come to recognize the Minutemen for what they are VIGILANTES. Next?

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

In reply to your questions, I will try here. I hope we are talking about post #105.

Yes, the Border Patrol is greatly understaffed, doing a VERY dangerous job and sure, we could use more funds and manpower (which does not appear to be coming as promised, but being dribbled over us like someone sprinkling salt onto our wounds).

Most of the agents and their families that I know personally are ARRESTING AGENTS. They can only do what the Government allows as they are Representatives of our Government. Now if there is a problem with these limitations (and I think there may be) perhaps it should be addressed on a Federal level, as the local officers are literally under fire here. I would not object to Military Troops on the border. Trained organized professionals, not a group of irate citizens or as sasafras called them (and so appropriately) "VIGILANTES".

Some of the MMP may be people with good intentions, but some may have other motives for being here. I suspect that they would enjoy having Dan Rather as one of their embedded journalists, good idea? Could be, it appears that at least a couple of members in their group have lied, and how do you know they are not lying to you as well?

Could you tell me what a video tape of the illegal aliens is going to prove? We know they are coming, we are undermanned to stop them, and the knowledge that there is an illegal that you wish to follow on their journey thru our country in itself is ludicrous when you could report them at anytime and have them sent back where they came from.

"Since you are on "the other side of the fence" from me in this matter, I am going to ask you to do all FR.com website members and lurkers a favor. Would you please, starting a few days before the "Minutemen" are supposed to arrive take a few pictures, talk to your neighbors and police officers. Ask them to keep a sharp eye out for these "Minutemen" and to call you with their reports of infractions and any unwelcome behavior."

Sir, their presence alone is unwelcome behavior. We will be watching, but when we make reports we will be making them to Larry Deaver and his deputies or the Border Patrol. As I mentioned earlier, I may leave this up to the others, I will approach some of the folks in the group that I represent and ask them if they would like to report "unwelcome behavior to you via Internet", I suspect most of them would say if you are on the other side of the fence that you could NEVER appreciate it when OUR property lines are crossed and OUR homes and properties are damaged or OUR livestock are injured by this group (as has happened in "missions" of this type in the past), but I will ask if anyone in my group would like to make a day to day report to you.

When you offer money, could that mean that would you like to indemnify the MMP? Who will? That is the information that we really need to know. Who will pay for this group's inevitable damage to our homes, property or citizens?

Unlike some Arizonans I have been frugal and have all the monies and resources that I need to hound the MMP as far and as long as it amuses me to do so, if I should wish to do so, (and I do not). I do not need film for my camera or money to watch them, but I will ask some of the others in my group. I seriously doubt any of them will accept your offer because the majority of them hold deed to their lands, and feel they have a right to protect that which they have paid for and built by the sweat of their brow.

Now you have speculated that there will be no abuse of the illegal aliens, how can you be certain of that? Personally, I do not advocate torture, but once that cat's out of the bag, it may be more than the issue of the MMP vs Border Patrol or Citizens, the Mexican Gov. could ask for your extradition so you can spend some time in one of their prisons.

No Minuteman holds any claim to that which is OURS by legal deed because WE purchased or inherited these properties. At one time I loved living out here, then when the vigilantes from California and their groups started in on us that has become a constant source of annoyance. For all the wisdom that some of these groups claim to have, it seems that they prefer not to read as well as the illegal aliens. *Remember I said the illegals usually avoid my property because it is posted, that is not true with the VIGILANTES. They wander thru my property as if they think they pay the taxes on it (and they don't). I have had more reason to take up my rifle for Americans than I have for illegals in the past few years. When confronted some of these vigilante types have been rude, unsupervised armed and literally had to escorted from my land by Law Enforcement. I suppose I have been called about any name that most of you could think of and all because I want to enjoy some peace and quiet on my property.

While we are speaking of taxes and expenses, do you think that the efforts on the border to detain and transfer and medically treat illegal aliens has not had a serious impact on Cochise County and our taxes? If you think that, then you would be wrong.

The issue of the Minutemen is merely another one of those flies that you spoke of that needs to be swatted down. They are coming here hoping to do something that all of the other vigilantes including the ones who are out there all the time are unable to do without breaking the law. Maybe use your monies to help support the CHANGE of border policies? If I knew any pre-packaged solutions to this problem of illegal aliens, I would give it to you right here and now.

Perhaps the people who will be caring for my ranch will report to you, if the MMP only stay on Private Properties in the area then it's likely that we can avoid problems with them.

I don't think it's right that the Border Agents cannot return fire across the Mexican Border. I never have, still the fact remains that they have been told not to, and they are doing the best they can within the confines of Governmental guidelines. I try to stay out of range of them and also try to remember that we are NOT at war with Mexico (at this time).

B4Ranch, did I answer your questions? I do not intend to be rude, if it was not for others that came before the Minutemen who convinced so many of us that many of the Vigilantes are bad... IF so many of them had not already tried to make the citizens out here their victims (and many of us are tired of that)...This is not the first "mission" near our homes, there is a group that is constantly out there damaging our property, tearing up fences and actually trespassing by going where they are NOT welcome, this group all claim to be Americans who are protecting the border (and if our property gets torn up in the process, so what?) Well we are gearing up to have a so what for them, that's what!

If we do not have the right to speak up or defend our property, then how or who will stand up to deny us that right? The Law is on our side, if they damage our homes or property we will have to use the only means of legal retaliation that are available to us, and that would be the Court system. This could all be avoided if these great Patriots would stage their protests where there are already reporters anxious to give the politicians BAD press. I do not think you are going to find very many reporters wandering around out here in the desert unless they bring Dan Rather with them.

In closing, thank you for your offer, I will at next week's meeting mention that you have offered to pay for people to watch the MMP, but I hope you are not disappointed when you do not get a lot of takers for that offer. They will be watching them but the reports they make about them will probably be to Law Enforcement, not an interested person from the Internet, although I do find your offer of funding for such a project to be a kind one. Thank you.

If I have missed the point of you post or questions, I will be glad to better understand when I come home from Phoenix. I apologize that it has taken me so long to read over your post again and try not to seem hostile. It could be that if I were to meet some of you in a neutral venue, we could agree on a great many things regarding the sad lack of support for our Border Patrol here.

I have felt that my views are being attacked here but that is not important. The important issue here is a solution to the REAL problem of illegal aliens (this includes Canadians who may be in our country illegally) will NOT be solved by Jim Jones GilCHRIST, he is just another huckster from California who wants to sell you all some snake oil, and wants to conquer the legal residents of Cochise County who want to resist yet another group of VIGILANTES in our community. This is my opinion and generally represents some of the Citizens in Cochise County.

[L.N. Smithee]

Who (pray tell) even said I would waste one more word on you?

Who said? I did, that's who. And I was right. For the record, you "wasted" 72 more.

[ex 98C MI Dude]

I am also down here in southern Cochise County, but I don't see the opposition to the Minuteman Project you seem to see. The vast majority are ignoring them (as in, maybe they will just go away). Most people view the illegal problem as a problem that needs national attention, and MMP is (supposedly)intended to do just that. I will not be joining them, because this is going to degenerate into something nasty, mostly due to the opposition. You state you/others will be stalking them. Yes, I said stalking. Don't. Let Larry Dever and his deputies do that. If they screw up, let the law handle it.

Your comment about their presense being unwelcome is a little disturbing. This is the USA, and NONE of us can tell someone else where they can and can't go. These people will be on private property, supposedly where they have been invited. If they stray, they will be dealt with properly by the law. Their stated 'mission' is to observe and report. If they stick to that, they will be fine. If you try to provoke them, you will be in the wrong.

Lastly, look up the definition of 'vigilante'. If the MMPers stick to the stated goals, then they do not fit the definition. Your 'group' just might, however. Your 'group' is going to be doing the same thing the MMP is, but on US citizens instead. Think on that, please.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

My final response, no one from my group wants to be here (and we live here) wake up and smell the coffee. The only stalking that I will do is from a courtroom. Got that? Good.

My group does not want to be out involved in even watching the "Vigilantes", the ACLU has generously offered to risk their lives to do that.

The Gang MS 13 is going to be out in that desert in April some of us may hire security and leave the area. If I come home to find that my home has been burned or destroyed at least I will still have my life.
Goodnight & in regards to this subject at the request of Mr. Robinson "good-bye". I will live through this to post another day as a true conservative.