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To: Askel5

Your posts are mildly amusing in their puffed up arrogance and naivete.

Opus Dei isn't an organization open to non-Roman Catholic persons. Some would say, based on evidences, that that secret society is bent on reasserting the temporal power of the papacy. And we all know how well the Papacy had dealt with signficant temporal power in the past - inquisitions, heresy-hunts, torture, etc. The full force, power and authority of the Papacy was behind such madness - Opus Dei seems to desire a return to that state of affairs.

My suggestion to you: Get your own house in order and don't lecture others about so-called secret societies until Opus Dei is perfectly transparent or disbanded. Certainly the same could be said of the Jesuits. Until I'm allowed to join either or both Opus Dei or the Jesuits, I refuse to believe that they aren't holding Black Masses, swearing oaths to kill all Protestants and other kindred aspersions not unlike those leveled by the ignorant at Freemasonry.

(You're certainly aware of the revelations made by former Jesuit Priest, Alberto Rivera? He describes the Vatican as sitting on a great deal of 'secret' teachings and practices. He describes the Church of Rome as being behind everything from Islam to Abraham Lincoln's assasination to Communism to Billy Graham. If ex-Masons or anonymous persons claiming to be Shriners are reputable sources, then certainly a man who has verifiable credentials as an ex-Jesuit should be believed?)

You must not know a great deal about the foundations of our rites and beliefs as Christians. You claim there is 'occultism' in Masonry. If you are using 'occult' to refer to hidden mysteries, pre-Christian religious traditions, etc. then you are certainly aware that much we call 'Christian' has its roots in the pagan world, near East and Asian religions, etc. As Lewis properly echoed the Church Fathers, Christianity was the myth that came true. We must at the same time admit that sacred meals of bread and wine, dying and rising Saviors, virgin births, crucifixion/the cross as a sacred religious symbol, the motif of twelve disciples, feeding miracles, nature miracles; symbols such as the fish, the rainbow - all find numerous pre-Christian usage. So too the names of Yah(weh) in the Hebrew Bible - El, ba'al, etc.- all echo Canaanite religion and illustrate a progressive syncretism. "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel" by Mark Smith is a good place to begin reading.

Likewise, the doctrines of Satan, hell, etc. - all those ideas were imported from non-Yahwistic; Babylonian traditions. Should we reject virtually every feature of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) because mystery religions or other signficant traditions used "our" rites, sacraments, doctrines amd stories prior to the development of the Christian faith? What exactly is 'occult'? Are you aware that fundamentalists denounce the Church of Rome for being full to the brim with 'occult' falsehood per Hyslop's 'The Two Babylons'?

The golden eagle atop the staff of an American flag is certainly residual from the 'Pagan' Roman Empire - Do you reject it as occult, pagan or an idol as do our Jehovah's Witness friends?

Vatican 2 was the best thing that could have happened to Rome. The object of renewal for the Roman Church and reconciliation with Protestants and Orthodox is not in line with devotees of Pope Pius IX, but it is in keeping with Jesus' high priestly prayer in John's Gospel. I don't reject the Roman Catholic as an enemy. Catholic Christians are my brothers and sisters. I may disagree on various doctrinal particulars, but we share a common devotion to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Rock on aggiornamento.

Good link on Vat 2 --> http://vatican2.org/contents.htm

Compared with Pope Pius IX, the post-Vatican II, Pope John Paul II has been a tireless advocate for freedom, liberty of conscience and democratic justice traveling around the world in the cause of Christ. Sadly for Tridentine/Father Malachi Martin types (but happily for the rest of us) the post-Vatican II Church of Rome has certainly had a better record of carrying out the mission of Christ than the pre-Vatican II Church.

The contrast between Pius IX,(defended from his own subjects in the Papal states by foreign mercenaries) as the Pope who issued the condemnations of Masonry, democracy, religious liberty, etc. so relied upon Roman traditionalist-conspiracy folk to condemn America, her founding and present world influence & Pope John Paul II is telling.


392 posted on 02/06/2005 7:02:57 PM PST by PresbyRev
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To: PresbyRev

Another outstanding post. Thank you, Rev.


394 posted on 02/06/2005 7:15:05 PM PST by Trinity_Tx (Most of our so-called reasoning consists in finding arguments for going on believin as we already do)
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To: PresbyRev

Opus Dei is a cult.

You can think of them as the Masons of the Catholic Church if you like. No other organization in Spain is more responsible for the eradication of the Latin Mass and the destruction of ancient churches to conform to the Masonic structure.

(If you haven't been in a Catholic church recently, I suggest you visit a "renovated" church and see for yourself that Catholics -- like Masons -- are now putting Man at the center and even positioning the candles and altar and book similarly to the Lodges. Christ -- lest he offend anyone at some ecumenical service, I suppose -- has been neatly relegated off stage and out of the sanctuary.)


Just as the Incarnation offers redemption to all men despite their proximity in place or time, I'm confident that certain truths have been perceived for all time ... through a glass darkly, perhaps, by those pagans for whom the concept of virgin birth rang true.

In the Catechism, the Church makes no bones about pointing out many of the truths men have in common. She is explicit in detailing her own Jewish heritage, certain commonalities with the Mohammedan heretics, her imperfect communion with the various protestant sects as founded by dissenters over the years (save Mormonism) and even touches upon the fact that a pagan, good and true who is bound by the truth he seeks and loves, has a part in that Redemption effected by Christ's Passion.

But the Church is not as omnivorous as most would believe and explicitly eschews bent thought, error and the savageries of paganism. She is not a "multi-culturist."

So, although her liturgical calendar makes perfect sense and stands in perfect harmony to both supernatural truths and the temporal order on earth--the advent of light, the rebirth of spring--I don't think you can make the leap that she vests herself in the secrets of the ancient pagan world in the same way Masonry claims for itself a lineage of Superior Enlightenment.


396 posted on 02/06/2005 7:37:07 PM PST by Askel5 († Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. †)
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To: PresbyRev

Your comments about Martin, in particular, are mystifying. You pegged him as a traditionalist of some sort?

I don't think the politicization of the Gospel, inclusive rewording and reworking of the liturgy, weakening of the faith, decimation of religious and pansyifying of priests have been great fruits of Vatican II.

"Progressive syncretism"?

I'm finding your post -- like others on this thread -- quite fascinating.

You don't have to look to Popes for condemnation of that gross tyranny of the "will of the people" that is democracy. Plenty of our founding fathers and folks like de Toqueville will give you an earful if you wish to listen.

And if you really wish to see Masonic imagery in all its glory, I'd look to the double-headed eagle of Moscow, the black and white of the Jordan staircase and the little pyramid from which Lenin faces off with the newly adorned Christ figuring prominently over the Holy Gate of G.U.M. at Red Square ... it's possible they've beat us at our own game.

(A compliment to us, actually.)

Check! My progressive syncretist secularist Believer! =)


397 posted on 02/06/2005 7:48:45 PM PST by Askel5 († Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. †)
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