Freemasonry's Influence in Europe

Zenit.org ^ | January 30, 2005 | Zenit

[Askel5]

Useful idiots? lol Gee, thanks.

You pay dues to an organization whose primary purpose you can know nothing about. You are more like Useful Ignorants that Idiots, I grant you, but that doesn't change the fact that Freemasonry is premised on the keeping of certain secrets to which you are no--and never will be--privy.

1. You say Masons must put their "faith" behind "bland social works" But you would only be close to the truth if you said "put their *religious* sectarian divisive crap behind actual charity toward others. Shame on them.

If that were the sole purpose of the group, it would be one thing. It's not. If the point of Masonry was to put "religious" divisiveness aside for the benefit of charitable works and business networking, you would include pagans and atheists among your ranks.

What could be the problem with that where any man of faith entering the fraternal order puts his sectarian beliefs aside for the greater good of an organization premised on charitable works? Atheists are unsuited to charitable works? Why is that?

2. Yes, we know you're really into dogma and legalism - you're quite famous for it here. You may call us insidious but I call such prudity insipid and such predictably pious and proud pontificating obnoxious. "Self-styled Christians" indeed.

Hearkening to your comment on how Masons comport themselves in discourse, I find it hard to believe you somehow make the leap to calling me a pious, pontificating prude simply because I defend what is true for all men as a rule and defend my Catholic faith as well.

Your stooping to attacking me personally doesn't quite jibe with your pretense at being Christians while yet being enlightened somehow by your Masonic affiliation which -- one would assume -- would have trained you to be above such "religious sectarian" differences where true charity and truth are concerned.

3. What's all this preaching about sinful America? That's the Masons' fault for getting the French to help us in the revolution? LOL

The comments about the French and the founding fathers speak strictly to the way Masons appear to pride themselves on their network of associations and glut of powerful men a part of the Masonic organization while yet denying anything like "conspiracy."

And, again, not only your rush to upbraid me as a pious prude but your ability to compartmentalize illustrate well how it is many in this nation can eat its cake and have it too where essential Christian morality is concerned.

4. " Masonry is utterly incompatible with Christ." So you say. And many say that Catholicism is too... that it's full of homosexuality, pagan ritual, the whore of Babylon, the pope is or will be the Antichrist... And there are Calvinists who say Arminianism is incompatible with Christ... It goes on and on.

If you wish to debate the subject seriously, I'm sure that the occult a part of Masonry (much less its equating belief in Christ with belief in any other Supreme Being) will stand where some of the more colorful of anti-papist propaganda will not.

I think people who point fingers as do you and those in the examples above are incompatible with Christ.

I'm not here to point fingers at people or castigate them personally. The Masons and their sympathizers on this thread have that tack well in hand. I'm merely pointing out that the organization itself -- heavy into the occult and claiming a foundation that predates and only superficially incorporates the Incarnation -- cannot possibly be compatible with Christianity.

5. Regarding the Shriners partying on the town - do you really want to use examples of immoral men to trash a group? At least the Shriner was picking up women, and of age. I wont go into the kind of "mirth" the foul-mouthed, drunkard priest of my ex-boyfriend's family was into at the lakehouse.

Do Masons allow homosexuals to join? Just curious. According to Canon Law, homosexuals in particular and all of those of weak mind or constitution were never to be considered candidates for the priesthood. Unfortunately, in the wake of Vatican II and the ongoing revolution within the Church, our minds have been corrupted by Masonic influence just as clearly as our churches have come to resemble Masonic temples.

Many in the Catholic Church now take a Masonic view of the Supreme Being ... it being unimportant to believe in the Trinity or pay attention to "gender" so long as a person "believes" and applies themselves to social justice, charity works and the politicization of their faith in the polling booth.

It's the mindset I abhor. Surely you comprehend Christ well enough that you too can hate the sin but not the sinner?

6. Dogma is odious not because it's binding or true. It's odious in that there are many different dogmas all proclaimed as truth with equal conviction. Legalism and religiosity and judgementalism were the practice of the scribes and pharisees, and Jesus berated them for it.

Is there some sense to the ritual a part of Masonry? Is there any truth anchoring the dogma and morals? Is there some standing by which members of an exclusive, secret society lash out to smear detractors as prudes, insane, jealous or (insert favorite Freudian psycho-condemnation here)?

If not ... and particularly where Masonry's effect is to put the "religious sectarianism" behind (Christ included), I'm not sure it's wise to be chucking stones from a glass house.

The Catholic Church, throughout its history, has had no shortage of scribes or pharisees within. Yet none of these have had one iota's effect on the dogma yet defended to this day OR the practices -- particularly the Eucharist as instituted by Christ -- a part of the Catholic discipline and faith.

But that fact ought to be immaterial to you ... not only because, as a Mason, you put "religious" questions behind you but also, as a Mason, you should have bested the Church by now and enjoy your association utterly free of the legalism, dogma or moralizing you eschew among Catholics.

7. Do you have the ?supreme degree of Membership necessary to defend ALL of" Catholicism's rites, dogma or secrets? Or are you a "Useful Idiot" to defend it?

The Church has a hierarchy and "buck stops here" pointman in the Bishop of Rome. No doubt she's had more than her fair share of intrigue over the past 2000 years. But she has no secrets as such and there is no shred of Catholic dogma or ritual which I am somehow barred from knowing simply because I have not risen high enough in the ranks.

One reason for this is that the Church knows better than most how Inner Rings and Secret Societies inevitably corrupt men and cause them to put the things of this earth -- particularly their own pride -- above all.

[Askel5]

To the contrary, ignoring your posts as a rule is a good reflection on anyone. I don't normally engage psychotic street bums, frothing at the mouth and punctuating their ramblings with hysterical laughter, either.

yet,it is admirable that a secular organization demands its membership believe in GOD.

First of all, you'll need to convince me they insist their memebership believe in "God" and not simply a "Supreme Being." Big difference.

Second of all, I'm not sure what is admirable about a secular organization's making this one critical requirement of all members. If the organization is simply about charity work and the purposed leaving behind of "religious" affiliation, I see no reason atheists or agnostics should not be welcome. (Save for the fact they might give the game away.)

I'm sure it may once have had a genuinely pious intent but -- particularly given how encrusted they are with occult -- I'm not certain the collecting "men of God" was on the up and up. Rather, it apparently sets in stone at the get-go a critical conceit of the organization.

[nopardons]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh...name calling,by implication and ad hominems and lies!

For those who don't know,Askel15 and I have known each other for a very long time and she has ALWAYS answered my replies and we have even been on threads,for years,where we were on the same side,posting against others!

Is the appellation "SUPREME BEING" (which isn't exactly the correct term that Masons use)not the same as GOD?And if not,why not? Some Jews refuse to say GOD;they even refuse to spell it out.Should a secular,fraternal organization,in your opinion,be compelled to use a word that would offend its membership/potential membership?

When Freemasonry was begun,atheists were looked upon as not only suspect,but devoid of moral turpitude.Agnostics at least believe in the possibility/probability of GOD or,if you will,a supreme being.OTOH,I rather doubt that many agnostics have been Masons.

Freemasonry wanted/wants men of good morals and behavior for membership and people who believe in GOD,they thought/think are more probably going to be that way. Of course,there's no guarantee of that being sol,then or now.But it was,until recent times,also an historical fact that religious observance was demanded by law,in colonial America and once we became a nation;though no,not at the federal level.

You haven't a leg to stand on using the word "conceit" for others or any organization you've been libeling using spurious propaganda and your own biased musings.

[Askel5]

Should a secular,fraternal organization,in your opinion,be compelled to use a word that would offend its membership/potential membership?

Why is a secular organization making belief in a supreme being their first requirement? That's the more interesting question

You haven't a leg to stand on using the word "conceit" for others or any organization you've been libeling using spurious propaganda and your own biased musings.

The word "conceit" has more than one meaning. For instance, it can mean the same thing as "folly" ... such as the follies of the garden of Le Desert De Retz.

[Askel5]

Freemasonry wanted/wants men of good morals and behavior for membership and people who believe in GOD,they thought/think are more probably going to be that way

How does this square with the enmity toward Catholics? Surely there is no larger body of professing Christians on the planet.

[uglybiker]

I just can't fathom using such phrasing myself about the Catechism or any serious study of Catholicism.

Would you care to point out where anybody implied that you should? If you are referencing my statements on Albert Pike I have to warn you. You are comparing your beliefs to the opinions of one man. You have just insulted your own religion.

...while requiring that its members "believe" in some supreme being -- put that faith (Christianity, Judaism, etc. etc.) second while presuming to put the organization's own bland Social Works and personal Success morality first.

A very old and tired argument. When a man petitions a lodge, he is told very plainly that, if the Fraternity causes any disharmony in his family, his religion, or his vocation, then it is not for him. As for not discussing religion, we do not discuss sectarian religious beliefs. Just as we do not discuss sectarian politics within the lodge. For if there are two subjects that are sure to cause a fight, it's those two. (Note the mudslinging over on the Religious Forum over which flavor of Christianity is the right one.) BTW Elaborate on your earlier 'amusement' on Jews being Masons.

Particularly where we are talking about a nation...< snip >...preaches evolutionism and "sex education" in schools.

You lost me on that whole paragraph other than you seem to have used it as an opportunity to make the obligatory reference to abortion that you place in nearly every one of your posts irregardless of the subject.

...and [the Founding Fathers] relied so heavily on the diabolicized and secularized France to wage the revolution.

France at the time was a monarchy and the state religion was Catholicism. Many nations were approcahed in our fight against the British ;France, Germany, Spain, Russia and others. The French obliged. They had the supplies we needed and they were looking at any excuse to needle the Brits. It worked.

At least the Bolsheviks -- particularly those a part of their predecessor organization the Narodnya Volya "will of the people" -- have more intellectual honesty.

There are alot of dead Jews and Christians who would take issue with that statement.

Perhaps that too is a part of being conditioned to Compartmentalize like a good Mason and pretend that social work is the zenith of "morality."

No one ever said it was. Much less Masons. Good works are merely one way in which to put one's faith into practice. ONE.

Masonry is utterly incompatible with Christ. If this thread weren't proof enough, my conversation with a Mason at the Monteleone Hotel the other night is still fresh in my mind. His group of Shriners has a special sub-group (here in town this past weekend) devoted to "Mirth". Which devotion (from what I could tell) included trying to pick up women in bars and returning to the hotel room in time to get a call from the weekend's liaison, which assignation did not appear to have much, if anything, to do with the man's "Christian" marriage.

As you failed to provide any evidence that the man you were speaking to was actually engaging in such activities, I'll put that down to your own pre-conceived notions of Masons. It reminds me of my late Grandmother who thought for a long time that, the mere fact that I rode a motorcycle, I must be doing drugs. (The fact that I was in law enforcement at the time didn't occur to her.) It was amusing, to say the least. ;-)

I suspect dogma is "odious" in the sense that it is actually binding in the same way objective Truth binds a man who accepts same.

It becomes odious when it is done by habit and not with regard to the deeper meaning of the practice. It also becomes odious when one tries to figuratively beat others over the head with it.

Given the fact there is no Mason or Masonic sympathizer on this thread -- women being absolutely excluded, of course -- who has the supreme degree of Membership necessary to defend ALL of Masonry's rites, dogma or secrets, your spirited defenses of a rite you know only superficially are less than convincing.

And what, pray tell, would be the 'supreme degree of Membership neccessary' to convince you? Call it a hunch but, judging from your 'encounter' the other night, I have the sneaky suspicion that degree does not exist for you.

And as for having only superficial knowledge, I find it endlessly humorous that you, not hving any affiliation with the Fraternity, know aaaaaaaalllll about it!

Your arguments don't hold water, but the more I read your cyber-vitriol, I get the feeling that you are retaining it.

[Trinity_Tx]

But you see, I'm not at all religious, or a Mason. So most of your comments don't apply.

I defend them as I would the Boy Scouts (who also require non -sectarian belief in God).

Still, even though your attacks on Masons are indeed personal to these men here, they have maintained their integrity in their response, and I know my Mason father would not at all be pleased with my arguing with you like this... So, I'll apologize for the adjectives I used, and bite my tongue after this.

Most of your post is simply stating your opinions as though they were facts, and running with the conclusions - pretty meaningless. Opinions are a dime a dozen here - peruse the endless fights in the Religion forum to see how many claim the corner on Truth.

Re: My being a "useful idiot"... I know more about Masons than you do. Think about what you are doing.

Finally, since I see you believe yourself to be morally superior to so many other groups, including your Pope, I feel no need to continue defending Freemasons from your judgements. They are, after all, in good company.

[Trinity_Tx]

Outstanding post, Sir.

[nopardons]

I've already given you the explanation to your query.I shan't rewrite it just because you'd rather ask it again,than read it the first time.

Please don"t even think about trying to give me lessons on the meanings of words,when you misuse them.I knows what "conceit" means and used it well,re you and your posts...in all of its meanings.

[nopardons]

Masons do not now,nor have they ever born enmity nor ill will towards Catholics.OTOH,the same is not applicable concerning the Catholic church and most of its adherents.

The Catholic church and its minions,for hundreds of years,has publicly and privately libeled Masons,in writings and in speech.There is absolutely nothing in kind,put out by Freemasonry.

[nopardons]

BRAVO!

[PresbyRev]

Your posts are mildly amusing in their puffed up arrogance and naivete.

Opus Dei isn't an organization open to non-Roman Catholic persons. Some would say, based on evidences, that that secret society is bent on reasserting the temporal power of the papacy. And we all know how well the Papacy had dealt with signficant temporal power in the past - inquisitions, heresy-hunts, torture, etc. The full force, power and authority of the Papacy was behind such madness - Opus Dei seems to desire a return to that state of affairs.

My suggestion to you: Get your own house in order and don't lecture others about so-called secret societies until Opus Dei is perfectly transparent or disbanded. Certainly the same could be said of the Jesuits. Until I'm allowed to join either or both Opus Dei or the Jesuits, I refuse to believe that they aren't holding Black Masses, swearing oaths to kill all Protestants and other kindred aspersions not unlike those leveled by the ignorant at Freemasonry.

(You're certainly aware of the revelations made by former Jesuit Priest, Alberto Rivera? He describes the Vatican as sitting on a great deal of 'secret' teachings and practices. He describes the Church of Rome as being behind everything from Islam to Abraham Lincoln's assasination to Communism to Billy Graham. If ex-Masons or anonymous persons claiming to be Shriners are reputable sources, then certainly a man who has verifiable credentials as an ex-Jesuit should be believed?)

You must not know a great deal about the foundations of our rites and beliefs as Christians. You claim there is 'occultism' in Masonry. If you are using 'occult' to refer to hidden mysteries, pre-Christian religious traditions, etc. then you are certainly aware that much we call 'Christian' has its roots in the pagan world, near East and Asian religions, etc. As Lewis properly echoed the Church Fathers, Christianity was the myth that came true. We must at the same time admit that sacred meals of bread and wine, dying and rising Saviors, virgin births, crucifixion/the cross as a sacred religious symbol, the motif of twelve disciples, feeding miracles, nature miracles; symbols such as the fish, the rainbow - all find numerous pre-Christian usage. So too the names of Yah(weh) in the Hebrew Bible - El, ba'al, etc.- all echo Canaanite religion and illustrate a progressive syncretism. "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel" by Mark Smith is a good place to begin reading.

Likewise, the doctrines of Satan, hell, etc. - all those ideas were imported from non-Yahwistic; Babylonian traditions. Should we reject virtually every feature of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) because mystery religions or other signficant traditions used "our" rites, sacraments, doctrines amd stories prior to the development of the Christian faith? What exactly is 'occult'? Are you aware that fundamentalists denounce the Church of Rome for being full to the brim with 'occult' falsehood per Hyslop's 'The Two Babylons'?

The golden eagle atop the staff of an American flag is certainly residual from the 'Pagan' Roman Empire - Do you reject it as occult, pagan or an idol as do our Jehovah's Witness friends?

Vatican 2 was the best thing that could have happened to Rome. The object of renewal for the Roman Church and reconciliation with Protestants and Orthodox is not in line with devotees of Pope Pius IX, but it is in keeping with Jesus' high priestly prayer in John's Gospel. I don't reject the Roman Catholic as an enemy. Catholic Christians are my brothers and sisters. I may disagree on various doctrinal particulars, but we share a common devotion to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Rock on aggiornamento.

Good link on Vat 2 --> http://vatican2.org/contents.htm

Compared with Pope Pius IX, the post-Vatican II, Pope John Paul II has been a tireless advocate for freedom, liberty of conscience and democratic justice traveling around the world in the cause of Christ. Sadly for Tridentine/Father Malachi Martin types (but happily for the rest of us) the post-Vatican II Church of Rome has certainly had a better record of carrying out the mission of Christ than the pre-Vatican II Church.

The contrast between Pius IX,(defended from his own subjects in the Papal states by foreign mercenaries) as the Pope who issued the condemnations of Masonry, democracy, religious liberty, etc. so relied upon Roman traditionalist-conspiracy folk to condemn America, her founding and present world influence & Pope John Paul II is telling.

[Askel5]

If you know so much about Masons and, regardless the fact you have no use for the faith or associations of your fathers, feel bound to defend them, why can't you answer some of my questions? They're simple enough.


=== ince I see you believe yourself to be morally superior to so many other groups, including your Pope

And how is that? (I never tire of being psycho-analyzed at FR ... )

My pointing out what appears (to an outsider) to be a bent model in no way equates to my claiming moral superiority over another. I'm only too aware how depraved and weak and hypocritical I can be. I fail to see that it has any bearing on a discussion of Masonry's curious use of the Supreme Being for secular purpose, its meshing of occult and Christianity or the basic gist of and sense to its set-up, degrees and whatnot.

But I'm used to this sort of thing. After all, as so many have pointed out on this thread and others with all due pride ... the United States is more a Masonic than a Christian nation.

[Trinity_Tx]

Another outstanding post. Thank you, Rev.

[Askel5]

=== Your arguments don't hold water, but the more I read your cyber-vitriol, I get the feeling that you are retaining it.


You Masons are truly a class act.


=== And as for having only superficial knowledge, I find it endlessly humorous that you, not hving any affiliation with the Fraternity, know aaaaaaaalllll about it!

I wouldn't be asking questions if I knew all about it. I find it very hard to understand, actually.

[Askel5]

Opus Dei is a cult.

You can think of them as the Masons of the Catholic Church if you like. No other organization in Spain is more responsible for the eradication of the Latin Mass and the destruction of ancient churches to conform to the Masonic structure.

(If you haven't been in a Catholic church recently, I suggest you visit a "renovated" church and see for yourself that Catholics -- like Masons -- are now putting Man at the center and even positioning the candles and altar and book similarly to the Lodges. Christ -- lest he offend anyone at some ecumenical service, I suppose -- has been neatly relegated off stage and out of the sanctuary.)


Just as the Incarnation offers redemption to all men despite their proximity in place or time, I'm confident that certain truths have been perceived for all time ... through a glass darkly, perhaps, by those pagans for whom the concept of virgin birth rang true.

In the Catechism, the Church makes no bones about pointing out many of the truths men have in common. She is explicit in detailing her own Jewish heritage, certain commonalities with the Mohammedan heretics, her imperfect communion with the various protestant sects as founded by dissenters over the years (save Mormonism) and even touches upon the fact that a pagan, good and true who is bound by the truth he seeks and loves, has a part in that Redemption effected by Christ's Passion.

But the Church is not as omnivorous as most would believe and explicitly eschews bent thought, error and the savageries of paganism. She is not a "multi-culturist."

So, although her liturgical calendar makes perfect sense and stands in perfect harmony to both supernatural truths and the temporal order on earth--the advent of light, the rebirth of spring--I don't think you can make the leap that she vests herself in the secrets of the ancient pagan world in the same way Masonry claims for itself a lineage of Superior Enlightenment.

[Askel5]

Your comments about Martin, in particular, are mystifying. You pegged him as a traditionalist of some sort?

I don't think the politicization of the Gospel, inclusive rewording and reworking of the liturgy, weakening of the faith, decimation of religious and pansyifying of priests have been great fruits of Vatican II.

"Progressive syncretism"?

I'm finding your post -- like others on this thread -- quite fascinating.

You don't have to look to Popes for condemnation of that gross tyranny of the "will of the people" that is democracy. Plenty of our founding fathers and folks like de Toqueville will give you an earful if you wish to listen.

And if you really wish to see Masonic imagery in all its glory, I'd look to the double-headed eagle of Moscow, the black and white of the Jordan staircase and the little pyramid from which Lenin faces off with the newly adorned Christ figuring prominently over the Holy Gate of G.U.M. at Red Square ... it's possible they've beat us at our own game.

(A compliment to us, actually.)

Check! My progressive syncretist secularist Believer! =)

[Trinity_Tx]

Why say I "have no use"? I greatly respect the faith and associations of my father, who loves the Lord with all his soul, and knows what a trap religious dogma can be.

Wasn't it Paul who admonished the churches for focusing on the teachings of one disciple over another? Told them to stick to the basics? That's my father's view - like CS Lewis - Mere Christianity.

Your questions have been answered quite well throughout this thread, particularly the last 2 by UB and Rev.

How do I get that you feel morally superior to even your own pope?

Well, I'm no Catholic, but isn't the Pope part of Vatican II and the "revolution" you "abhor"?

If you feel qualified to denounce their folly, it's obvious you believe that your moral convictions are superior to theirs.

[PresbyRev]

Thanks for the tip. You should check out the architecture and imagery of St. Peter's in Rome for some really occultic and pagan imagery. Praise God, it is given fresh meaning in light of Jesus Christ.

Apart from the imagery that can be found at St. Peter's and many RC churches, the Pope's tiara apes the headgear of priests of Poseidon (hint: it's a vertical fish head). Or, it could find reference to the use of the fish by the early Church as a symbol for mutual recognition during Roman persecution (not unlike the uses of hidden modes of recognition used by Templars or Masons undergoing persecution from tyrannical despots of various sorts).

Of course, you can go into any Catholic Church and find the statue of Semaramis/Nimrod; Devaki/Krishna; or Mary/Jesus.

Any occult or pagan imagery you believe you find in Masonry (as a non-Mason and anti-Mason) can be found likewise in spades throughout the Roman Church.

Martin is a conspiracy theorist. You seem to be fellow travelers. Don't you allege some sort of Masonic cabal that has infiltrated and corrupted the Roman Church? If I am mistaken, I apologize and stand corrected.

Liturgy in the language of the people is a gain; not a loss.

The homosexualization of your clergy is sad, but it would seem to me to be more a phenomenon of the modern era. The priesthood is where single gay men could find life without nagging questions about their sexuality. Cases of molestation pre-date Vatican II don't they?

The Bible is a story of the progressive development of a religious Story - hence progressive syncretism. There are elements of other neighboring religions that clearly found their way into the development of the religion of Israel and the Church; I believe providentially. The issue is not whether double-headed eagles, statues of Madonna and Child or Christmas Trees are pagan in origin, but to what use they are put and with what meaning they are assigned by those who use them today.

Democracy is obviously shorthand for 'representative republicanism' - something the Roman Church has certainly stood against up until Vatican II (can you say "Calvin's Geneva" or "America"?).

[Trinity_Tx]

UB said to you: "Your arguments don't hold water, but the more I read your cyber-vitriol, I get the feeling that you are retaining it."

You reply: "You Masons are truly a class act."


Well, lol... Considering how you provoked him by such insults as you've thrown, I think it was indeed a sign of class that that's as far as he went. I've seen plenty of "comments" by supposed pious others that make his look like those of Mother Theresa.

As for your "asking questions", if that's all you were doing, no one would be offended. Your posts go far, far beyond "asking questions". You pass very critical judgement based on what you now admit is a limited understanding.