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To: NJ_gent

'The SCOTUS decided to look past the fact that this was a trunk and that the human cops apparently didn't smell anything. It's more an issue of what constitutes "plain view", in my opinion.'

Sure, and that's a much better argument than the claim that the Court redefined the word 'search'.

However, I think the main problem is still that -- 'plain view' aside -- there doesn't appear to have been a legitimate privacy interest in this case at all. _If_ the Court was right that the dog sniff could reveal only the presence or absence of contraband, then the only information at issue was unprotectible in the first place. And if so, that falls under a _different_ exception to the Fourth Amendment from the 'plain view' exception.

'Personally, I see far too many problems with extending "plain view" past what a human being can detect with his or her senses during the normal course of events. Apparently, the SCOTUS wants to extend it to anything that can be detected by anyone or anything without physical contact.'

I don't think that's their argument in this case. Here, they argue (rightly or wrongly; again, you may disagree with them) that the possession of contraband simply isn't information that falls within reasonable privacy expectations in the first place.

'The problem is, what happens when science builds a better mouse trap (or dog's nose, in this case) and makes it well enough that it's nearly impossible to find fault with it?'

According to the Court's logic in this case, it still has to be precisely tailored to collect _only_ unprotectible information in order to pass Constitutional muster. I don't see thermal imaging and wiretaps and such meeting that standard now or ever. (Again, this isn't currently a 'plain view' issue since it falls under a different exception to the Fourth Amendment.)


718 posted on 01/25/2005 10:26:47 AM PST by MisterKnowItAll
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To: MisterKnowItAll
I don't see thermal imaging and wiretaps and such meeting that standard now or ever.

How about portable chemical analyzers that can be programmed to detect trace amounts of certain drugs and only those certain drugs (or explosives, etc?) That technology is very close to being available.

725 posted on 01/25/2005 10:41:40 AM PST by green iguana
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To: MisterKnowItAll
"_If_ the Court was right that the dog sniff could reveal only the presence or absence of"

The Fourth doesn't protect things - it protects places. It doesn't matter if he's got a kilo of coke or a box of matches in the trunk; the trunk is all we need to hear. Look at it this way - assume that the only item in the trunk was pot. Assume further that the first cop on the scene (with no dog) just decided for the hell of it to make the guy pop the trunk without consent or probable cause. What would happen and why?

The Fourth protects places regardless of the contents of said places. Unless it is apparent to a police officer in the normal course of events that there is direct evidence of a criminal act in a certain place (barrel of a gun sticking out from under the driver's seat), the place cannot be searched. The cop can have every warning bell in his brain sounding red alert, but if he doesn't have probable cause, he can't search. The cop can have 30 years of experience telling him this guy's definitely got some pot under the seat and he still can't search without probable cause. The place is protected even if the contents of said place are not.

"the dog sniff could reveal only the presence or absence of contraband, then the only information at issue was unprotectible in the first place. And if so, that falls under a _different_ exception to the Fourth Amendment from the 'plain view' exception."

I keep reading the 4th Amendment, but I still don't see anything that says it's ok to conduct a search if you're just real sure you'll find something bad.

"Here, they argue (rightly or wrongly; again, you may disagree with them) that the possession of contraband simply isn't information that falls within reasonable privacy expectations in the first place."

Again, the Fourth protects places - not things. While the 50 kilos of cocaine in my living room may not be protected, my living room (being a part of my home) is. Ergo, a cop who busts through the door, grabs the cocaine, and runs back out without looking at or touching anything else has still violated my 4th Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. If he wants to enter my home, he needs probable cause and/or a warrant. Likewise, if he wants to search my trunk, he needs probable cause. It doesn't matter what I have in the trunk; the trunk itself is protected from searches without probable cause unless it's sitting wide open and subject to 'plain view'.

"I don't see thermal imaging and wiretaps and such meeting that standard now or ever."

You could easily have software that filters out anything not illegal - leaving only illegal 'unprotected' items for the police to view. Now what happens when your software does that and reports strictly illegal items to the police about you? Does that now make it ok to tap everyone's phones and scan everyone's house and car? As someone else pointed out, just what happens if we develop satellite-based technology that can do all this work for them? You could literally start shooting gamma rays through every part of the US and map everything down to the square inch. With powerful enough computer systems and good enough software, you could pinpoint every illegal item or substance in the country at all times. That said, we've still got a satellite mapping every square inch of our homes, bodies, children, etc. Is that what we want for ourselves?
726 posted on 01/25/2005 10:47:19 AM PST by NJ_gent (Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.)
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