STARWISE. Re: Your post #109 and THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA [also at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html ]
You said: 'I also believe that this Pope is particularly gifted with vision, and his current words may be reflective of his saintly spiritual gifts and connection to the Blessed Madonna of his heart.'
....Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism.
In 1917 no one could have imagined all this: the three pastorinhos of Fatima see, listen and remember, and Lucia, the surviving witness, commits it all to paper when ordered to do so by the Bishop of Leiria and with Our Lady's permission....'
and thor76 said in #209:
'What one must realize - whether or not you believe in Fatima, or are Catholic, is that this pope IS the Pope of Fatima. Read up on what happened at Fatima.
Then realize this: in 1917 Islam was largely unheard of in the West. This was true even some 40 years ago - it was a foot note in history, whose power was long past. ***** Neither in 1917 nor in 1960 would nyone have envisioned Islam as being a "geo religion" - much less having tremendous military and political power.
Thus, in addition to the other ramifications of Our Lady's appritions and messeges at Fatima, we have the ascendanccy of Islam - all to clearly hinted at in the word "Fatima" itself.......which is the name of the daughter of Mohammed.
This also bears out numerous private revelations which speak of a resurgence of Islam.'
Someone could and did envision all this, as he too, had a vision from a spirit guide. That someone was Albert Pike in 1871.
This from:
JosephCard. RATZINGER
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith
[i.e., OFFICE OF THE INQUISITION]
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html
'....The concluding part of the “secret” uses images which Lucia may have seen in devotional books and which draw their inspiration from long-standing intuitions of faith. It is a consoling vision, which seeks to open a history of blood and tears to the healing power of God. Beneath the arms of the cross angels gather up the blood of the martyrs, and with it they give life to the souls making their way to God. [angels do not give life nor, as far as I know, do they gather blood of the martyrs] Here, the blood of Christ and the blood of the martyrs are considered as one: the blood of the martyrs runs down from the arms of the cross. The martyrs die in communion with the Passion of Christ, and their death becomes one with his. For the sake of the body of Christ, they complete what is still lacking in his afflictions (cf. Col 1:24). Their life has itself become a Eucharist, part of the mystery of the grain of wheat which in dying yields abundant fruit. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christians, said Tertullian. As from Christ's death, from his wounded side, the Church was born, so the death of the witnesses is fruitful for the future life of the [????Catholic???] Church. Therefore, the vision of the third part of the “secret”, so distressing at first, concludes with an image of hope: no suffering is in vain, and it is a suffering Church, a Church of martyrs, which becomes a sign-post for man in his search for God. The loving arms of God welcome not only those who suffer like Lazarus, who found great solace there and mysteriously represents Christ, who wished to become for us the poor Lazarus. There is something more: from the suffering of the witnesses there comes a purifying and renewing power, because their suffering is the actualization of the suffering of Christ himself and a communication in the here and now of its saving effect.
And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the “secret” of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: “... the events to which the third part of the ‘secret' of Fatima refers now seem part of the past”. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past. Those who expected exciting apocalyptic revelations about the end of the world or the future course of history are bound to be disappointed. Fatima does not satisfy our curiosity in this way, just as Christian faith in general cannot be reduced to an object of mere curiosity. What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the “secret”: the exhortation to prayer as the path of “salvation for souls” [unscriptural] and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion. [??to Mary, the Pope, the CATHOLIC faith, perhaps?? Also unscriptural.]
Since many teachings of this church can and have been shown to be in direct contradiction to the Word of God, I would have to say this about the 'visions':
First, there is an inordinate obsession with BLOOD, particulary coming from a church that has the blood of millions on its hands. It also reminds me of the Jesuit Oath.
Second,
Lev 19:31 — Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Lev/19/31.html
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14 *** And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
'Come out of her, my people.'
OK - I get the point.....you are seemingly an anti- catholic evangelical using this thread to post your opposition to the RCC.
Nomally I would tell someone with such a viewpoint to "take a hike"..........but I do have a more profound comment.
Many Protestants - and evangelicals in particular - see the Roman Catholic Church as either the seat of the Antichrist, or as the "whore of Babylon, drunk on the blood of the martyrs".
It might surprise you to learn that many conservative, traditional Catholic Biblical Scholars think exactly the same thing may be indicated in scripture.
But there is a difference: TENSE.
You are referring to the present tense. Those of us Catholics who agree with traditional scripture scholars believe that this may well be the case - but in the FUTURE. It is predicted in scripture that there will be a mass apostacy. Those of us who have studied know this.
It has not all literally happened yet. It may well happend in the future - near future. Perhaps in my lifetime.
But regardless of this prophecy or the all too real probability of its near future coming true, that is no reason to "knock" the Roman Catholic Church........which is THE CHURCH which Christ himself founded - from which ultimately, all Christian denominations came.
Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church........not the baptists, presbyterians, Dutch reformed, Heugonats, Quakers, Methodists, and many and sundry other Christian denominations. These were all founded by mortal men - either as a revolt against the Catholic church, or as a further doctrinal schism against each other. While their believers/adherants do indeed follow the Lord Jesus Christ, the denomination they adhere to was totally man made.
That much is historical fact. Now if you personally do not like or have a quarrel with aspect of church history, or the actions of individuals, so be it. If you do not accept our doctrines - fine.
But otherwise kindly leave my church - the Roman Catholic Church alone. It is not inherently evil - neither are the various Protestant Churches. Nor is it perfect, being composed of mortal men.......and neither are any of the Protestant churches.
After all the first Bishops of the Church were the Apostles - and they sure were not perfect! The first Pope was Peter......whom Christ chose not for his intelligence, or spiritual/moral strength. But for his weakness. God always chooses the weak as his vessels, and makes them great despite their weaknesses, for his greater glory.