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To: Matchett-PI
Some dispensationalists chafe at this, but the fact is dispensationalism is a direct product of the Plymouth Brethren movement in England in the early 19th century.

This is true, and I applaud you for doing your homework. However, a non-dispensational (aka historic) premillennial futurist view of the Revelation was undeniably the position of the earliest Church, in particular those who are most connected to the Apostle John himself (e.g. Papias, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and even enemies like Cerinthius).

Dispensationalism is not so much wrong as it is an overcorrection of the Replacement Theology (Supracessanism, if you prefer) that had dominated the RCC and carried over into the Reform churches for so many centuries. Disp. is correct, in my view, in its understanding that God's promises to the land and natural seed of Israel will be fulfilled exactly as they are written in both the Tanakh and NT instead of merely in spiritual allegory to the Church. However, in the zeal to uphold Israel's promises as given, Dispys unfortunately draw too wide a distinction between Israel and the Church, considering the latter a "mystery" in the OT, and (usually) even positing that God will not directly deal with Israel again until after the Church is taken out of the world (Raptured).

What I would suggest is that we regard the Gentile Church as being neither separate from Israel nor replacing her natural members in those promises specific to Israel (which is a separate issue from individual salvation), but being more of a sibling adopted into another's family. As an adopted child, it is not our right to promote ourselves over the natural seed nor to scorn them (whether or not they are currently in fellowship with the Father), nor to use the freedom the Lord gave us not to have the Jewish Torah culture imposed on us as a condition of adoption or fellowship (Acts 15) as a pretext for condemning those who choose to keep it. Nor can we say that we have replaced the natural children in the Father's will--rather, we have simply been added to it, so that we too can share in it's blessings. Paul warns us in Romans 11 not to arrogate ourselves over the natural branches, even those broken off, for God is able to graft them back in again. Further, he states that after the full number of the Gentiles have been brought into God's Community, the partial blindness will be lifted from Israel, "and so all Israel will be saved, as it is written."

I am no proposing that simply being born Jewish makes one saved, or that keeping the Torah does. Clearly, long before the Torah was given at Sinai, it was faith that was what made men righteous before God, as Paul points out repeatedly from Abraham's example in Genesis 15. However, while salvation through faith is God's greatest blessing, and the prerequisite to recieving all others in any but a temporary fashion in this life, it is not God's only blessing. The land grant of Israel was clearly given to Abraham's natural seed through Isaac in Genesis 15--and that was a unilateral covenant made by God that neither Abraham nor his descendants could break. They could put it on hold through disobedience, but the prophetic Scriptures (and today's reality) show that God has promised to always bring them home again in His own time.

What we most need to recognize is the simple fact that God elects and judges corporate bodies (i.e. nations) just as He does individuals . . . and the Bible is clear that He has elected Israel to be the center of the Messiah's kingdom when He Comes again.

282 posted on 01/17/2005 11:06:01 AM PST by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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To: Buggman

. The land grant of Israel was clearly given to Abraham's natural seed through Isaac in Genesis 15--and that was a unilateral covenant made by God that neither Abraham nor his descendants could break.

_________________________________________________________
Jos 23:11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.

Jos 23:12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, [even] these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:

Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will
*** no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, *** until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Jos 23:14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that *** not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] *** not one thing hath failed thereof.

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; **** so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and *** ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jos/Jos023.html#14


Jer 11:10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: *** the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jer/Jer011.html#10 http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jer/11/10.html


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; *** which my covenant
THEY brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But THIS [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

Jer 31:36 If THOSE ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For *** they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/9/6.html

Rom 9:7 *** Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son......

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, **** a REMNANT shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, **** Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. **** For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 9:33 **** As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, And TO THEY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 ******* And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#29 http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Gal/3/29.html


' Paul warns us in Romans 11 not to arrogate ourselves over the natural branches, even those broken off, for God is able to graft them back in again'


Rom 11:23 And they also, **** IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.....
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom011.html#23

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar011.html#26


Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Perhaps this is why:

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev003.html#9

Rom 11:31 ......that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


Isa 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins....... http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa058.html#1




1Ch 22:7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:


1Ch 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.




1Ch 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon [Solomon Means PEACE - see note below], and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

1Ch 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I [will be] his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ch/1Ch022.html#9


Note: Solomon means PEACE:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a SON is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called WONDERFUL [*** SEE NOTE BELOW], Counsellor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The PRINCE OF PEACE. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/9/6.html

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa009.html#top


Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk001.html#33 http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/1/33.html

*** NOTE FROM ISAIAH 9:6 ABOVE:

Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] SECRET? http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jdg/Jdg013.html#18

Leave it to the Danites. The correct word is WONDERFUL!

Hsa 13:9 — O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Hsa/13/9.html


283 posted on 01/17/2005 2:09:06 PM PST by Ethan_Allen (Gen. 32:24-32 'man'=Jesus http://www.preteristarchive.com/Jesus_is_Israel/index.html)
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To: Buggman

As you probably know:

Jerusalem = "teaching of peace"

1) the chief city of Palestine and capital of the united kingdom and the nation of Judah after the split

Strong's Hebrew for 03389

'I asked Jesus how much He loved me, and He spread His arms wide to the side, revealing the wounds in His hands, and He replied, This much.'

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn003.html#16
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/3/16.html


284 posted on 01/17/2005 2:25:02 PM PST by Ethan_Allen (Gen. 32:24-32 'man'=Jesus http://www.preteristarchive.com/Jesus_is_Israel/index.html)
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To: Buggman
"....However, a non-dispensational (aka historic) premillennial futurist view of the Revelation was undeniably the position of the earliest Church, in particular those who are most connected to the Apostle John himself (e.g. Papias, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and even enemies like Cerinthius)."

Really? That's funny. We find Origen (DIED aprox 275)himself saying that it [Chiliasm/Millenarianism] was "confined to those of the simpler sort."

"This [Chiliasm/Millenarianism] obscure doctrine was probably known to but very few except the fathers of the church, and is very sparingly mentioned by them during the first centuries; and there is reason to believe that it scarcely attained much notoriety, even among the learned Christians, until it was made a matter of controversy by Origen, and then rejected by the greater majority. In fact, we find Origen himself saying that it was confined to those of the simpler sort." (Waddington's History, pg. 56)

"One of the antichrists who afflicted the early church was Cerinthus, the leader of a first-century Judaistic cult. Regarded by the Church Fathers as "the Arch-heretic," and identified as one of the "false apostles" who opposed Paul.

Cerinthus was a Jew who joined the Church and began drawing Christians away from the orthodox faith. He taught that a lesser deity, and not the true God, had created the world (holding, with the Gnostics, that God was much too "spiritual" to be concerned with material reality). Logically, this meant also a denial of the Incarnation, since God would not take to Himself a physical body and truly human personality.

And Cerinthus was consistent: he declared that Jesus had merely been an ordinary man, not born of a virgin; that "the Christ" (a heavenly spirit) had descended upon the man Jesus at His baptism (enabling Him to perform miracles), but then left Him again at the crucifixion. Cerinthus also advocated a doctrine of justification by works in particular, the absolute necessity of observing the ceremonial ordinances of the Old Covenant in order to be saved.

Furthermore, Cerinthus was apparently the first to teach that the Second Coming would usher in a literal reign of Christ in Jerusalem for a thousand years. Although this was contrary to the apostolic teaching of the Kingdom, Cerinthus claimed that an angel had revealed this doctrine to him." (Chapter 12,Paradise Restored)

"At the Council of Ephesus in 431, belief in the millennium was condemned as superstitious." (Clouse, The Meaning of the Millennium, p. 9.)

Epiphanes (315-403): "There is indeed a millennium mentioned by St.John; but the most, and those pious men, look upon those words as true indeed, but to be taken in a spiritual sense." (Heresies, 77:26.)

Eusebius (A.D.325): "This same historian (Papias) also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise certain strange parables of our Lord, and of His doctrine and some other matters rather too fabulous.

In these he says there would be a certain millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses; yet he was the cause why most of the ecclesiastical writers, urging the antiquity of man, were carried away by a similar opinion; as, for instance, Irenaeus, or any other that adopted such sentiments." (Book III, Ch. 39)

C.H. Spurgeon (1865) "Those who wish to see the arguments upon the unpopular side of the great question at issue, will find them here; this is probably one of the ablest of the accessible treatises from that point of view. We cannot agree with Mr. Young, neither can we refute him. It might tax the ingenuity of the ablest prophetical writers to solve all the difficulties here started, and perhaps it would be unprofitable to attempt the task. . . (review of Short Arguments about the Millennium; or plain proofs for plain Christians that the coming of Christ will not be pre-millennial; that his reign will not be personal." B. C. Young. In The Sword and Trowel 1:470 (October 1867).

Christ speaks of a 'final day'. He speaks of a singular general judgment and resurrection. He speaks of a single 2nd coming. Acts tells us that the heavens must receive him until the restitution of ALL things. That's the New Heavens and the New Earth!

2 Peter 3 destroys any and all forms of premillennialism - especially when read along side of 1 Corinthians 3.

2 Peter 3 never tells us about any "1000" years.

There is neither Jew nor Greek..." [Gal.3:28, Col 3:11]

286 posted on 01/17/2005 7:19:16 PM PST by Matchett-PI (Today's DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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