Posted on 01/03/2005 8:18:33 AM PST by kiriath_jearim
Open or Closed Case? Controversial theologian John Sanders on way out at Huntington. By Stan Guthrie | posted 12/22/2004
While John Sanders and the Board of Trustees at Huntington College in Indiana disagree on whether God exhaustively knows the future, they agree that his days as a theology professor at the evangelical school are running out. The issue, according to both Sanders and G. Blair Dowden, the college's president, is not Sanders' belief in open theology, but his notoriety in advocating the doctrine. Both acknowledged that others on the faculty hold the same open theology views.
"You can be an open theist," Sanders told CT. "You just can't be a well-known one. That makes this a very interesting case."
After an executive session of the board was held in October, Dowden told members of the faculty that there "was very little support for John's continued employment at Huntington." Neither Sanders nor Dowden expect him back for the 2005-2006 academic year, which begins next fall. Dowden told ct that while the controversy is "directly related" to open theism, there is no requirement for professors on the issue.
"Not at all," Dowden said. "We have some other faculty who are open theists, but they're not teaching theology or Bible. It's not a litmus test."
Sanders, who has taught at the school of about 1,000 students for seven years, has been a focus of controversy over open theism for the past four years, he said. In November 2003, Sanders narrowly avoided being expelled from the Evangelical Theological Society over his beliefs. Some society members believe open theology violates the society's commitment to scriptural inerrancy.
Huntington removed Sanders from the tenure track over the controversy, but school officials attempted to give him some financial security by signing him to three-year rolling contracts, automatically renewable annually, unless the administration or board says No. In the event Sanders were to be dismissed, he would receive payment for the balance of the contract.
Sanders told ct he expects to be relieved of his position shortly, and that Dowden has "made it clear that my contract will not be renewed after the 2004-5 academic year." Sanders said that he is looking into other teaching positions and research grants, but that he has no other options waiting in the wings right now.
Earlier reports in ct and the Chronicle of Higher Education that Sanders had been "fired" were inaccurate. Dowden, who called Sanders a "brilliant scholar" and "excellent teacher," has been a defender of Sanders.
"John has done everything we have asked of him," Dowden said. But Dowden said that the United Brethren in Christ, which sponsors the school, "finds open theism troubling—some [leaders find it] very troubling."
Dowden added that academic freedom, while important, is not absolute. "For all Christian colleges, academic freedom is bounded in some way."
Sanders said the school is not following its own guidelines. "I do believe that the right to publish and academic freedom statements that the professors actually are working under are being violated," Sanders said. "They are being trodden upon."
Some students at the school are upset. Joni Michaud, a senior history major who is a leader in a student group supporting Sanders, said the controversy is "a case study in academic freedom." The group meets weekly to discuss strategy, has sent letters supporting Sanders to the board, and is seeking to raise awareness among other students. Michaud said the treatment of Sanders violates the school's statements lauding the "benefits of controversy" in an academic setting.
"If Dr. Sanders is indeed fired, I will graduate with a much lowered opinion of the institution," said Michaud, a pre-law major. "I will probably not make any financial contribution, and I will discourage people from attending."
Such talk is no doubt troubling to administrators, who have announced a freeze in tuition rates for the 2005-2006 academic year. Huntington College, to be renamed Huntington University in mid-2005, says the annual U.S.News & World Report survey of colleges consistently ranks it as one of the top comprehensive colleges in the Midwest.
Dowden said the board will next meet January 19-23, and the fate of Sanders could be formally decided then.
[Stan Guthrie is senior associate news editor for Christianity Today]
On the contrary, I think it's rather plain and obvious. What baffles me is how others do not understand what seems to be a relatively straight forward concept.
This is the way God works in every believer's life. Stepping out of the Calvinist/Arminian message for the moment, God knows our strengths and weaknesses and He provides the right conditions for us to flourish as much as we possibly can.
Saul was no different then you or I. When Nahash the Ammonite came and besieged Jabesh-gilead all the men of Israel wept. But God empowered Saul and Saul knew what to do by God’s Spirit, and under God’s power rallied the troops for a military victory.
God works just the same way in you and me through the gifts and talents of the Holy Spirit to accomplish His will. And when we don’t do according to all what God would prefer us to do it GRIEVES the Spirit (Eph 4:30) which is the same as saying WE grieve the Father. This is no different from God grieving (or repenting) over Saul in 1 Samuel.
We agree totally. How did THAT happen?
Because God created and choose the right person at the right time for the right task.
It's simple. He can pronounce it knowing full well ahead of time whether or not it will be heeded.
The statement "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them" remains valid regardless of whether or not God has a hand in their turning.
It appears that he chose Saul for his plan BECAUSE he knew that Saul would fail, and he chose David BECAUSE he knew that David would succeed where Saul failed.
Indeed God apparently chose these specific men for these specific tasks because of what God knew each would do if placed in that position. And what they did was perfectly according to God's plan, wasn't it?
I believe there are absolutes with things like the natural sciences, but I do not believe there are absolutes when applied to things like morality, spirituality, religions, or other metaphysical subjects.
Yes, but the question remains whether God could have enabled Saul to succeed, and whether God was ultimately responsible for David's success.
So by works you were saved. But just one thing. Seeing that God says we are spirtitually dead. How did you choose ? Can dead people select anything ?
What a fine first absolute. Know test it to see if its true.
It is a belief not an absolute, it cannot be tested. If it can, please show me how.
Interesting.
Paul refers to himself as a bondslave. A bondslave is no longer free. A Bondslave is a slave who when given the choice to be free, exercises that choice to be forever enslaved to his master and thus surrenders any free will that he may have had.
He is then placed into a position where he has voluntarily placed himself into a position where he is "forced" to serve his master.
Who said Saul failed? Saul and his sons had their successes with the Lord. And for all the things Saul did to David, David knew and respected Saul's calling as "the Lord's annointed".
But Saul did some things he shouldn't have done and disobeyed God's command (1 Sam 13). God knew Saul would be disobedient yet He still annointed him king. God created Saul and purposely raised Saul up to do exactly what He wanted him to do. There isn't "success" or "failure" with God.
I would think this principle would be refreshing to understand. God has choosen and redeemed us knowing we will goof up. But success and failure in carrying out God's plan doesn't rest with us. Our failures doesn't affect God's perfect plan or will or the thing He has called us to do in carrying out His plan. Because of His divine gifts all Christians will be successful for what God has called us to do. But our failures along the way only limit the blessings God wants to bestow on us and grieves the God who desires to give us His blessings.
BTW-It also should be noted that God sent kings up to fail as well but Saul was not such a person.
Your statement is itself an absolute.
Can you prove that? If you cannot answer, just say so.
What do you mean by "absolute"? Seriously. I think we must all be using the terms very differently. I would have thought many "absolutes" could not be tested, while my experience and study of the natural sciences leads me to conclude that every statement made has an implied "as far as we now know" attached to it -- which to me means it is very UNabsolute and provisional.
Do you mean to say it can't be tested BECAUSE it is a belief? Golly, we're going to have to find another forum to keep this conversation going!
Tell me this: Do you think you are RIGHT in believing that there are absolutes in the natural sciences. Does being right matter somehow? Do you think we theists are wrong when we say the things we do and do you think (or believe) our being wrong matters?
And if you hold that it does matter to be right or wrong, is that a belief or an absolute? It seems to me, that many of the most important things have to be believed and cannot be known the way we "know" say Newton's First Law. That my child loves me and that it is desperately important that she love me seems to me to be a good bet, but unknowable.
"It's simple. He can pronounce it knowing full well ahead of time whether or not it will be heeded."
So, He can pronounce something as true knowing it is not? That's a terrible position to take.
"Who said Saul failed?"
God. God said He was sorry He made Saul king, you disagree?
"So by works you were saved. But just one thing. Seeing that God says we are spirtitually dead. How did you choose? Can dead people select anything?"
This is bogus exo-theo-nonsense (I'll coin my own ten cent word to sound important)!
If God makes people believe or reject, why does He question aloud when people reject or disobey Him? It makes no sense. It's as if the Lord were perplexed by His own actions or will....
Numbers 14
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
I'm talking about moral absolutes...I have questioned many here on FR, as to the actual definition of a moral absolute, and I have yet to get a definition, just examples. As you say, many absolutes cannot be tested and have an implied 'as far as we know'. This seems especially true with the ones dealing with religion and morality. This is why I question people that seem convinced their moral and religious views, are 'absolute truths'...perhaps I've missed something, and they can provide some insight...consequently, I am still asking.
All this reinforces my thinking that these morals and religious beliefs are relative.....to the individual, or group of individuals, depending on many variables. Throughout history, it has been shown that some society, tribe, or group of individuals, has condoned things that others, in different times or places, have considered to be wrong or immoral. If there were moral absolutes, or truths, then I would expect that truth to be something self-evident, or inherent in all men, at all times. For lack of being able to present it any better, this was my analogy for the necessity of breathing...something that all men must accept.
While I believe in one, all-knowing and all-powerful God, I also do not believe there is any way to prove it, thus I follow no religion, and accept things as they are.
My, or anyone else, being right or wrong, is not relevant.
We know that God needed to send a savior so its obvious he wasn't pleased.
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