I originally Posted this here over the last few days:
http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=16336&mesg_id=16336&page=
First off, I am an Astronomy hobbyist that owns a Green Laser 5mw, as well as a Licensed FAA Private Pilot, Single Engine Land.
Ok, I'll just post what I posted there: If it looks like I was replying to someone I was, as I was rebutting him, but I removed his comments. You can read his comments to me at the above link I posted.
Hmmmmmm,
Oh Please, I've used guns with lasers too, as have many here I bet, no big deal, and very common.
Well, even with your vast experience, you can still be wrong, and I say IMHO, it is just mischief with the perpetrators not realizing the seriousness or the consequences of their actions.
And I also think all these local Barney Fifes have no clue as to the Federal regulations that govern the airpsace or the power of the laser, and will just assume everyone is a terrorist with any laser regardless of the power.
Oh wait, looks like in one case I was right:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-laser.htm
"On Wednesday night, a pilot preparing to land the jet at Teterboro reported seeing three green laser beams about 11 miles from the airport."
11 Miles, who cares, It's out of the zone anyway, not that anyone ever reports that there is a zone.
Now we'll have all these whiners calling police every time some kid or adult shines a LEGAL LASER in the sky. That is almost as STUPID as the flight sim warnings after 9/11. Just DUMB Press to drum up ratings, IMHO.
Even the FAA says there have been NO ACCIDENTS even though there have been HUNDREDS of reported lasers. And the studies confirm the minimal annoyance this has been.
And if you had all this vast experience you speak of, you also might know there are regulations on this, as well as this:
1. Laser Free Zone (LFZ). Airspace in the immediate proximity of the airport, up to and including 2,000 feet AGL, extending 2 NM in all directions measured from the runway centerline. Additionally, the LFZ includes a 3 NM extension, 2,500 feet each side of the extended runway centerline, up to 2,000' AGL of each useable runway surface. The level of laser light is restricted to a level that should not cause any visual disruption.
2. Critical Flight Zone (CFZ). Airspace within a 10 NM radius of the airport reference point, up to and including 10,000 feet AGL, where a level of laser light is restricted to avoid flashblindness or afterimage effects.
3. Sensitive Flight Zone (SFZ).- Airspace outside the critical flight zones that authorities (e.g., FAA, local departments of aviation, military) have identified that must be protected from the potential effects of laser emissions.
4. Normal Flight Zones (NFZ).- Airspace not defined by the Laser Free, Critical, or Sensitive Flight Zones.
MULTIPLE RUNWAY LASER FREE ZONE
AIRSPACE FLIGHT ZONES
Graph Form
This Data is Very Recent, and is from August of 2003.
The FAA says:
"CONCLUSION. The FSEL of 5 mW/cm2 was validated for pilots illuminated by laser light while conducting terminal operations in the CFZ. Familiarization with the aircraft flown and instrument training appeared to improve the pilot’s ability to deal with laser exposure. Laser illumination at a higher level of exposure resulted in an unacceptable number of visual and operational problems. Laser effects may be especially serious for inexperienced or visually susceptible pilots."
Also from the FAA:
"FAA Order 7400.2 provides protection for aviators and passengers in designated zones of navigable airspace from both biological tissue damage and temporary visual impairment due to exposure from visible laser beams. The particular class of laser is not an issue as long as exposure levels are maintained at or below that assigned to the zone of airspace in question."
ALso: h. Flight Zone Exposure Distance. The maximum distance from the laser system beyond which the laser beams irradiance level does not exceed a specific level:
1. Laser Free Zone - 50nW/cm2;
2. Critical Zone - 5(mu)W/cm2;
3. Sensitive Zone - 100(mu)W/cm2.
Now Class IIIa lasers which are mostly the retail ones like the one I linked to above do not exceed 5.
So if he saw one 11 miles away like in this article, tough cookies...
Look, anyone that flies through one and is not in a zone, it is unfortunate, but this is just not a serious issue, IMHO, just an annoyance.
And I seriously doubt that many of these ATP's are familiar with the zones, or many people that even read these forums for that matter.
This is just overblown Hoopla.
From the news article:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-laser.htm
"At one moment he was in the backyard playing with his daughter," said Longarzo, "and 10 minutes later 12 police cars descended and he was whisked away by authorities and interrogated until 4 a.m."
What a Crock...... 12 Police cars for a laser pointed in the sky. ooohhh..... Guess I'll call the cops every time I go stargazing from now on, and of course I'll have to set up my Nighttime video camera top prove I did not highlight any aircraft as well. Can't let Barney Fife get involved, now can we....
This is a joke, IMHO.
And I say I think it was, especially if the person has the Class 3a Laser I linked to in the first post. $129, and you can point to the Moon, and it will appear as if it is right on it. And I've done it, with Stars and cluster as well. Now I can't say whether a Plane ever flew through one I was using, but if it did, oh well, they don't own the entire sky you know, and neither do I, but I can still use it.
And I say it was PRESENTS and KIDS in some cases, which is PROVEN in the article about the Guy Interrogated by Barney Fife and the 11 mile pilot.
That may be your opinion, but I feel you are overreacting and since there have been HUNDREDS, yes HUNDREDS of these reports over the years, your opinion is not based upon ANY FACTS whatsoever. It is just conjecture. I think you are trying to scare people with your post, IMHO.
Yeah targeting Stars. this is as dumb to me as banning guns. You as a Gun Owner should realize it is the person with the laser that does the damage, and there are rules and regs in place already.
So go arrest the ones that can be PROVEN to be Targeting, with a Laser within a PLOTTED OUT Zone according to Federal Regulations which are already in place.
Or do you feel ALL lasers should be banned to protect the entire Airspace of The United States, where only a Minuscule fraction is used for Aircraft Operations. It is a pretty big sky, you know.
Maybe what we need is simply a Education Program and better Publication of the Federal Regulations already in Place, since it is the Feds who are the only ones who can regulate Airspace.
And they should be prosecuted IF THEY BROKE A LAW. But if an Aircraft just flew through some guy pointing it in the sky, maybe they just experienced an AFTER-Image that made it seem like several seconds.
But I'm sure with all of your vast experience, you are aware of after images, yes? Same concept of any light entering directly in your eye.
Heck just stare at your light in your room for One Second.
Now Blink fast for a few seconds, and that is an after image.
I still say, IMHO, after HUNDREDS of these reports over the years, all of a sudden, you think they are all Targeting as if they are Terrorists.
Now how about we address something that has Brought down Aircraft instead of this scare tactic episode.
Hundreds of laser reports on aircraft = ZERO Accidents. Hundreds of Bird contact with AIrcraft How many dead, but we don't kill birds or ban bird ownership within 10 miles of an airport now do we.
But I bet some here would like to see a ban on these, and they are simply misinformed of the ACTUAL RISKS.
You want to regulate, regulate Commercial lasers Over 5, and leave the stargazers and observers alone.
And I also say an Aircraft at 8000 Feet at night going 300 Knots is very easy to track. You just listen for the sound and look for the lights on a clear night. Pretty simple stuff, IMHO. I see them quite often. The higher they are the easier to track.
I will also add that as a Pilot, If one was pointed at me, I would report it as well, but to be honest I am simply not worried about it. The advice is simply look away and concentrate on your instruments.
PS - Most of the data was taken from the faa.gov websites, and I have more info as well, such as actual test results done by the FAA in Simulators with a whole bunch of pilots, and done by the power of the laser.
Here is the actual FAA Study:
http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-400A/abstracts/2004/FULL%20TEXT/0409.pdf
Which concludes:
"CONCLUSION:This study confirmed that the illumination of flight crewmembers with laser radiation ≥ 0.5 μW/cm2 is unacceptable in the LFZ. Provided the exposure limit established for the LFZ (i.e., 50 nW/cm2) is not exceeded, a sufficient margin of safety appears to exist for protecting pilots from accidental laser exposure during final approach."
"The exposure limit established for the LFZ (i.e., 50 nW/cm2) precludes even 3a laser pointers in this zone. Provided the LFZ exposure limit is not exceeded, a sufficient margin of safety appears to exist for protecting pilots from accidental laser exposure during final approach; however, further research may be indicated to confirm this assumption."
Again, the LFZ is defined above.
Note the words SUFFICIENT MARGIN OF SAFETY.
So if they have a 3a Laser in the LFZ Zone, fine take it, if not leave them alone, IMHO.
Note the 10,000 Feet reference with a 5.
From:
http://www.meridiantelescopes.com/detlaser.htm
"NEW for 2004 5mW Green Laser Pointer
This laser projects a green laser beam/dot up to an incredible 10,000 feet away with a 5 mW green laser (532 nm wavelength) that is 30 times brighter than a red laser. This is because human eyes are most sensitive to green light. This laser has a true 5 mW output power, the maximum allowable by the FDA. For astronomers, you can see the laser beam in the dark and point out constellations or to collimate your telescope. You can even see the green dot outdoors in the daytime. It uses glass lenses and Sony laser diode."
So I say, confiscate all the ones above 5 if you want unless they have a legal purpose to have one, but please stop making outrageous comments like the ones you made above without having all the facts.
Do I think Commercial Grade >5 Lasers should be regulated? Sure why not.
But some in the news act as if this is something that recently started happening.
It's been going on for YEARS, and well before 9/11. Read the studies, like I did.
Hundreds and Hundreds of reports.
But Now, the press and a bunch of Barney Fifes want to retain the entire sky for their aircraft, as if the sky is only of benefit to them.
That is just wrong, IMHO.
This is just a stupid moronic attempt to gain ratings by the press, and had it not been reported, you would not have all these copycats doing it with their <5 lasers as is happening now.
I mean, please... They interrogate some poor guy until 5 am for shining a legal laser in the sky in his backyard. Then some IDIOT Pilot says he saw a Laser 11 miles away form the airport. 11 Miles. Talk about dumb. Maybe these pilots should on their next checkride should be tested on the regs in place now, to keep themselves from making STUPID Comments like that one did.
And of course, the IGNORANT Population continues to believe what people like YOU and the press keep saying on this. That is why I rebutted you with FACTS and EVIDENCE.
Talk about OVERKILL, overreaching authority, Ignorance, and just plain stupidity by these authorities.
As for Pilots being concerned, well, I guess the study should be mailed to each of them so they can ease their concerns, as well as a copy of the regs.
My guess is these pilots don't have any clue either, and are listening to the stupid press, and buying Rumors as facts like some do here.
As for the FAA, they did take action, they did do studies, they did receive input from Pilots, and they did enact the Laser Zones.
Again, not one single accident, not one due to a laser.
How about the FBI Instead of the FAA, would they be a credible source, or is this all a Terrorist cover Up Story.
Here You Go:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=710&e=1&u=/usatoday/20050103/pl_usatoday/fbinoterrorlinkinlasersaimedataircraft
"A string of incidents around the country involving laser beams aimed at aircraft aren't linked to terrorism and are more likely the work of mischief makers, the FBI said Sunday.
The FBI attributed eight incidents in the past 10 days to pranks or accidental acts that tagged aircraft in Ohio, Texas, Oregon and New Jersey. Pilots reported that powerful laser beams apparently had been aimed at them during takeoffs and landings."
Looks like I was right all along.
And from here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/03/fbi_laser_terror/
"Numerous people have been questioned by the FBI about this laser beam activity, but no one has been charged with a crime."
Maybe because THEY COMMITTED NO CRIME IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I advise folks here that the next time you see a Laser pointing in the sky, don't assume it's some whacky terrorist, as it is probably just an astronomer, or some kid or adult screwing around with a <5mw Laser.
Again, I feel what needs to be stressed is the Education of the Rules and Regs for the Public, and the Pilots, as all we will have is the Ignorant Public and Ignorant Pilots reporting every time they even see a laser going up in the sky.
Another debunked Theory....
And with regards to your faith in the FAA, what would be their motive for doing a study, establishing these regulations and federal rules, and not going for an all-out ban on ALL Lasers.
Do you believe the FAA is in collusion with the hand held laser industry? Pretty Silly, huh?
Maybe if the FAA held the opposite position of what I listed, you may have a point, but there is no motive for the FAA unless someone assumes they were in collusion to protect the laser industry. Two totally different industries, when you exclude the Military Applications.
Regards,
Joe