"I, Breadwinner? - View of Debt from the Left"

The Village Voice ^ | December 21st, 2004 | Peter Duffy

[Woodworker]

The Village Voice ages, and now dispenses conventional wisdom in an (apparently) tongue-in-cheek article. It's all about deferred pleasures, anathema to to many left-wingers. Emphasis added

For more good advise on living debt-free see:

http://www.daveramsey.com/

http://www.crown.org/

[rlmorel]

What an irritating article.

Of course, you could go into the military to help pay for college (as I did), but I'm sure THAT option would not be preferred by most of the readers of the Village Voice.

And what ever happened to living within your means? My wife and I could have bought a house twice as expensive as the one we live in, but we bought a small ranch instead of piling into unneccesary deep debt.

[G.Mason]

"How do I do it?

I'm in debt up to my eyeballs!" ;)

[DB]

People don't realize that their parent's first house was a 400 square foot box with no central heating, single pane glass, a stove, one bathroom and nothing else. No TV in every room (if you had a TV it was probably B&W), No VCR's, no video games, no CD's, no computers, no cell phones, no microwave ovens, no VCR's, no DVD players, no pagers, no dishwashers, no cloths dryers, the list goes on and on.

That was normal.

Now if you don't have all those things you're abnormal, and if you do, you're in debt up to your neck...

[jocon307]

"I'm in debt up to my eyeballs!" ;)

LOL! I know that ad, it's very funny.

[G.Mason]

"LOL! I know that ad, it's very funny."

I'm rather immune from ads, but the look on that actors face when he says that line makes me howl.

So much so, that the wife dreads it coming on the tube. ;)

[CatoRenasci]

What I find most amusing about this article is the whine about not being able to afford to buy a house. When I was in graduate school in the '70s, housing prices had also seen a huge surge and there was dire talk about college graduates being unable to buy houses, marry and live the good life our parents did. And what did our generation do? We made more money, bought houses, got married, had kids, and the cycle began anew.

Not living within one's means is the problem: now beginning with the choice to attend a college or university well outside your (and your family's) ability to pay (taking your scholarship aid into account). For those with ordinary middle or lower middle class means, 40 years ago, college meant two years living at home and going to the local community college, then transfering to the best public school one could get into in one's home state. That's still the route sensible people take.

Increasingly, however, there is huge pressure to attend a residential college/university for all four years and, especially in the eastern US, to attend a private college or university. (Admittedly, the eastern state universities don't have the prestige of some of those in the midwest or far west (or Virginia and North Carolina) that rank among the top 50 research universities nationwide, but still....)

While there is an argument to be made for paying the cost (even by borrowing) of elite colleges and universities -- mostly because of the contacts you can make and the opportunities they provide -- I have always thought that below that top tier of some 50 universities and 50 odd national liberal arts colleges, it made little sense to go to a private college or university rather than a public university. While I think that the many many smaller private colleges are run by sincere people who are doing the best they know how, I honestly believe that they do their students a disservice when they are priced at or just below the level of the top tier institutions without being able to provde the benefits.

[Hardastarboard]

Young men fear divorce and the financial risks it would bring, including child support

Here lies much of the fear of commitment of young men today, I believe. Divorce seems inevitable, and the obligation it leaves is nearly unbearable. Its aftermath is a sentence of poverty to both parties.

[Qwinn]

"Here lies much of the fear of commitment of young men today, I believe. Divorce seems inevitable, and the obligation it leaves is nearly unbearable. Its aftermath is a sentence of poverty to both parties."

I disagree. In general, it's a sentence of indentured servitude to the man, and an eternal source of funds for the woman. That's the way the laws work today, at least here in New Jersey.

Qwinn

[greccogirl]

Excuse me, but I'm really getting tired of listening to how much "easier" your parents had it then you. That is, quite frankly, a crock of you know what. Neither I or my husband were college educated, and we managed TOGETHER by being careful with our money and working about five jobs between the two of us to have a home, children, cars and vacations. Now the home wasn't over 200 thousand and was quite modest even by 1978 standards. Our cars also, neither even had air. We managed to "manage" our debt and keep a perfect credit rating for 30 years. Our children wanted for nothing.

Now of course we have two sons who are 23 and 24 and they, much like the rest of their generation, thinks the world owes them a living, and if they need something (or want something) and they don't have it, it's ok to just "take" it somehow or sit around and whine that someone should give it to them.

Now one of them dropped out of high school, and he had a job last year working for a sprinkler company, $12.00 an hour, HEALTH BENEFITS, vacation, sick leave, and his boss even drove here and picked him up and dropped him off everyday for $25 a week (he got a DUI and has no license). Want to know what happened? He got fired. Couldn't get his butt up in the morning.

This particular son is being tossed from our home after the first of the year.

So when I read stuff like this, it really kind ticks me off. I have no sympathy for ANYONE who credit cards themselves into slavery. It's not the fault of soceity. GROW UP.

[Siamese Princess]

I disagree. In general, it's a sentence of indentured servitude to the man, and an eternal source of funds for the woman. That's the way the laws work today, at least here in New Jersey.

I have many female friends and acquitances who are divorced, with children, and all of them found, or continue to find, it difficult to make ends meet, at least until they remarry or the children are no longer dependent on them. Some of the ex-husbands simply refuse to pay child support. I also know of a few cases of good, responsible men who were hosed by vindictive ex-wives. Good men and women suffer because of bad men and women.

[Siamese Princess]

Now of course we have two sons who are 23 and 24 and they, much like the rest of their generation, thinks the world owes them a living, and if they need something (or want something) and they don't have it, it's ok to just "take" it somehow or sit around and whine that someone should give it to them.

Were they John Kerry supporters? I certainly hope that they didn't vote. I'm sorry to say this about your children, but they are spoiled brats, which is what modern-day liberalism is all about -- the outlook on life, and demands of, a spoiled selfish brat.

[hellinahandcart]

pinging you

[jwpjr]

Now you've done it! You've given those of us in the sixties-plus generation an opportunity to express some of the frustration that we have regarding our offspring and their proliferate lifestyles. My wife and I have been married 43 years, we raised three children. All three of them are in their second marriage and one of them is in the process of ending that marriage but already seeing a lady with two kids. I know it's dangerous to generalize, but it seems to me a lot of the problem stems from the fact that it's been made so easy to get a divorce in today's world. All it takes is for one of the parties to decide they want out of marriage and there is nothing to stop them from ending it, regardless of the consequences for the others involved in the union.

[Woodworker]

Have your sons check this link, and apply for the "job" described there:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1309469/posts?page=1

[EQAndyBuzz]

"Easy for them to say, we thought. They didn't grow up in the age of easy credit. The credit card is just 40 years old, and it wasn't until the 1980s that a young person could get one without a signature from a parent."

Responsibility changed. My parents didn't allow me to have a credit card because they thought I was not responsible enough. And they were right.

I had 50k in school loans. My wife also had school loans. The people here who are whining probably decided to go to college and get educated on French Impressionism and other liberal arts degrees. A real good choice in the open market for these people. /sarcasm off

If you look at professionals, we had loans upwards of 100k or more and managed to pay them back based on the jobs we got. We may not have bought our homes until our mid to late 30's(I bought my first home, a townhouse for 130k in 1991, I was 31)but eventually we did.

I am now 44, my loans are paid off and I have the home and family of my dreams. I worked hard, took responsibility for my own actions and made a go of it without complaining or whining.

My reccomendation for all these college kids is to forget liberal arts as a major. If they want to do this, go to community college. Take a major that will enhance your life and reward you financially and emotionally. If you want to carry a 50k loan for majoring in dead French artists, quit whining and deal with it. It was your choice and you are responsible.

[RipSawyer]

"among 30- to 34-year-olds, the marriage rate in 2003 was four times lower than it was in 1970."

Here is a large part of the problem, if people with degrees are so uneducated as to believe that something can be four times lower then they have no hope of coping with money management. My parents knew better than that by the eigth grade. My father never even started his freshman year in high school and he had a better understanding of fractions than this writer!

[Semper Vigilantis]

Amen.
I remember what my parents went through to raise 3 of us in the 60s & 70s. We "went without" a lot of stuff, but we never went without the things we needed. Mac & Cheese with Spam, tuna casserole, American Chop Suey were staples. My father carried his lunch to work, we each carried ours to school. I remember helping my mother do laundry with an old wringer washer. My father spent weekends with his buddies keeping their cars running. To drive the same car for 10 years was not uncommon, it was expected. I learned how to fix cars, wiring, washers, dryers, toasters, furnaces, just about anything mechanical or electrical in or around a house. I now realize that Dad didn't do these things because he enjoyed them, he did them because he wanted to save his hard earned money for 'fun' things. To this day I have a real problem admitting that I have to pay someone to fix something that I can't. My wife told me after we were married that one of the things she found attractive was that I could 'fix' things. It took a lot of years for me to recognize just what an exceptional job they did!
IMO a big part of the problems today come from a lack of social stigmas. Want a divorce? No problem, sign here. Can't pay your debts? No problem, sign here. Want a big screen plasma TV to go with those food stamps? Sign here. Didn't pay attention in school? No sweat, you'll get your check on the 15th & 30th.
We need more personal responsibility, more social pressure to do the right thing, less handouts and less marketing.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

My wife and I could have bought a house twice as expensive as the one we live in, but we bought a small ranch instead of piling into unneccesary deep debt.

Dig it. I'm 54, in a three bedroom condo, no debt. No mortgage, no car payments. Only "current charges" on the credit cards. If I get laid off, I'll sell the condo, join the exodus south and out, cash my 401k and go fishin' for the rest of my life. I have 0.00 sympathy for folks who run up huge debts and start sobbing about how hard their lives are.

[sauropod]

"They didn't have to struggle to pay for an education."

Really? I had student loans for several years after graduation. I also went to grad school while holding down a full time job.

What makes them different than me?