Neocons vs. Rumsfeld

townhall.com ^ | 12/23/04 | Robert Novak

[Torie]

LOL.

[jmc813]

My guess the great majority of normal people don't include neocon in their vocabulary and wouldn't have the faintest idea what it means. It's popularity rests largely in the media and the internet.

What about the folks who consider themselves to be neocons? Are they ignorant as to what it means?

[Torie]

Thus, the neocon message is that the war was no mistake but has been badly conducted. [true to come extent]

While Adelman does not blame his friend Rumsfeld, the accountability of the secretary of defense is implicit. [the war plan was largely the creation of Tommy Franks actually, and Rumsfeld and Bush enthusiastically signed off on it]

Kristol's call for Rumsfeld's dismissal removes culpability for those who beat the drums to go to war. [BS]

Getting rid of Rumsfeld does not answer agonizing questions. [clearly]

Was the change of regime in Baghdad worth going to war? [It sure was] Could Saddam Hussein have been removed from power by other means? [almost certainly not - we tried] Is the use of U.S. military power to topple undemocratic regimes good policy? {Damn straight it is in certain situations where the stars are aligned right]

There are no clear answers. [true] To say simply that all would be well in Iraq, save for Don Rumsfeld, only begs these questions. [nobody is saying that; that is a canard and a straw man]

[SJackson]

What about the folks who consider themselves to be neocons? Are they ignorant as to what it means?

Doubt it, though I've no way of knowing.

[NYC GOP Chick]

It's a term used to smear Jews who are close to the President, but don't fall in line with certain elements of the far right.

So the Jewish people who call themselves neocons are in actuality smearing themselves?!? The logic here is escaping me.

Oh really? Name 'em -- and show where they've said that.

Name one who has come out and said that he or she is a neocon. With a direct link to that, of course.

Off the top of my head, I recall Dane and Torie claiming to be a neocon. I'm to lazy to go Googling.

If you're too lazy to back up your claims, then DON'T MAKE THEM. Proving *your* claims isn't my responsibility. But I wonder why you didn't ping Dane and/or Torie here and ask them yourself. I mean, if they're proudly calling themselves "neocons," they shouldn't have a problem being pinged over here and saying so, thus backing you up...

[jmc813]

If you're too lazy to back up your claims, then DON'T MAKE THEM. Proving *your* claims isn't my responsibility. But I wonder why you didn't ping Dane and/or Torie here and ask them yourself. I mean, if they're proudly calling themselves "neocons," they shouldn't have a problem being pinged over here and saying so, thus backing you up...

I pinged both of them and Torie responded in the affirmative in post 98.I'm sure she'd be happy to correct your idea of what neoconservatism is.

[wtc911]

I don't know of anyone who could have done the job better than Rumsfeld.

-----------------------------------

That doesn't mean that there isn't anyone who would.

[Torie]

This and the article above might help a bit. I wrote a longer piece about the neocon philosophy and sensibilities, but I can't find it. Depending on the issue, we do tend as a generality to be at once moderate and tough minded about domestic affairs, and tend to focus more on results than ideological purity.

[NYC GOP Chick]

Thank you for clarifying some things, Torie. Now, just out of curiosity, what do you think of the likes of Novak, Buchanan, etc., who use "neocon" as a derogatory term about Jews -- especially uppity Jews?

And have you ever noticed that among that ilk, the *only* leftist politicians they like are Israel's suicidal Labour Party?

[Torie]

Buchanan in my opinion is an out-of-the-closet Jew hater (always has been, but he is more blatant rather than latent about what fuels his true passion now), and Novak has a visceral dislike of Israel for reasons known only to him, since he has not fully laid his cards on the table about that one. I don't think Novak is a self hating ex-Jew, Jew hater.

[NYC GOP Chick]

Buchanan in my opinion is an out-of-the-closet Jew hater (always has been, but he is more blatant rather than latent about what fuels his true passion now),

I think Iraq brought the latent Jew-hating in him and his ilk out into the open.

and Novak has a visceral dislike of Israel for reasons known only to him, since he has not fully laid his cards on the table about that one. I don't think Novak is a self hating ex-Jew, Jew hater.

My experience is that most people who've converted out of Judaism tend to be virulently anti-Semitic, Larry Kudlow being the only exception with which I'm familiar.

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you and your family. :)