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To: Ed Current; Borges; Badray; All
And if someone could explain how The Ten Commandments are the basis of the Constitution I'm all ears.

Be careful what you ask for. :)

It's impossible to understand what role God plays in government without understanding a simple precept. There is MORE than one meaning to the word *law*.

The Founders, wise men that they were, realized that our world is composed of 2 types of ‘worlds’

The natural world... The physical world that consists of people, plants, the earth, etc., and the Positive world...the artificial world we create for ourselves, consisting of society, government, etc.

EACH ONE OF THESE WORLDS HAS IT’S OWN KIND OF *LAW*, AS WELL AS IT'S OWN CORRESPONDING TYPE OF *PERSON*:

Black's Law Dictionary ;
"natural person" : A human being, as distinguished from an artificial person created by law.
"artificial person" : An entity, such as a corporation, created by law and given certain legal rights and duties of a human being.

Noah Webster, the man personally responsible for Art. I, Sec. 8, ¶ 8, of the U. S. Constitution, explained two centuries ago:
The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.

The Ten Commandments are two sets of laws. Enforcement of the first 5 remains only in God's purview. The LAST 5 Commandments were laws between men AND punishable BY man. Breaking one of these 5 Commandment is what defines *crime*

This is what is known as Natural Law, or the law of Nature and nature's God of the Declaration of Independence.

If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.
John Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 1772

To grant that there is a supreme intelligence who rules the world and has established laws to regulate the actions of his creatures; and still to assert that man, in a state of nature, may be considered as perfectly free from all restraints of law and government, appears to a common understanding altogether irreconcilable. Good and wise men, in all ages, have embraced a very dissimilar theory. They have supposed that the deity, from the relations we stand in to himself and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable law, which is indispensably obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution whatever. This is what is called the law of nature....Upon this law depend the natural rights of mankind.
Alexander Hamilton, The Farmer Refuted, 1775

That these are our grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with that freedom of language and sentiment which becomes a free people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.
Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America, 1774

Government, in my humble opinion, should be formed to secure and to enlarge the exercise of the natural rights of its members; and every government, which has not this in view, as its principal object, is not a government of the legitimate kind.
James Wilson, Lectures on Law, 1791

Natural law STILL exists, and these TWO separate sets of laws is what MAKES us a "Republic"

natural law:
n. 1) standards of conduct derived from traditional moral principles (first mentioned by Roman jurists in the first century A.D.) and/or God's law and will. The biblical Ten Commandments, such as "thou shall not kill," are often included in those principles. Natural law assumes that all people believe in the same Judeo-Christian God and thus share an understanding of natural law premises.
2) the body of laws derived from nature and reason, embodied in the Declaration of Independence assertion that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
3) the opposite of "positive law," which is created by mankind through the state.

The Constitution doesn’t mention God because it is a POSITIVE LAW CONTRACT between the artificial creations known as “States” and the centralized United States. The ONLY role the people play in the Constitution is to ORDAIN and ESTABLISH it.

It has nothing else to do with the people except to enumerate a few POSITIVE LAW rights in the Bill of Rights. Take the 2nd Amendment, for example. It not only acknowledges the peoples natural law right to self defense, it ALSO gives us a positive law right to a SPECIFIC means to do so...*arms*. (Now you know why the BOR was separated from the Constitution.)

The Constitution gives only CERTAIN powers to the Federal government. EVERYTHING else was left to the states:

"The constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
--Patrick Henry

"When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."
– Thomas Jefferson

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 17, 1782

[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.
Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772

The Constitution defines and restricts federal jurisdiction...what the Founders referred to as 'authority'.

The states, on the other hand are a CIVIL authority. They were free to do what the Federal government could not. The Texas law against sodomy is a perfect example of codified natural law. Aside from the Biblical prohibition, the fact the lifestyle is not conducive to the perpetuation of the human species as well as being rampant with disease is a matter of common sense.

The bogus separation of church and state was invented by the 'legal system' (i.e. government) so that GOVERNMENT was no longer restricted by Natural law:

The Supreme Court of Mississippi, (1988) citing the Decalogue, reproached a prosecutor for introducing accusations during cross-examination of a defendant for which the prosecutor had no evidence:
When the State or any party states or suggests the existence of certain damaging facts and offers no proof whatever to substantiate the allegations, a golden opportunity is afforded the opposing counsel in closing argument to appeal to the Ninth Commandment. “Thou shalt not bear false witness . . . ” Exodus 20:16.

Government has purposely tried to blend natural law and positive law into one generic form of 'law' so that government can become the ultimate, unquestionable leagal and moral 'authority' in America.

83 posted on 05/05/2005 10:22:12 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I would rather stand with the few who are right than the many who are wrong!)
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To: MamaTexan
Thanks for your very informative post. Just wanted to mention that the concept of 'separation of church and state' is not an invention of goverment and/or Hugo Black as too many people wrongly say but from a letter that Jefferson wrote tot eh Danbury Baptists...and he was paraphrasing Roger Williams...who's having been expelled from the MA Bay Colony for religious dissent certainly had something to do with his ideas. :-)
84 posted on 05/05/2005 11:07:46 AM PDT by Borges
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To: Army Air Corps

Ping to a interesting discussion :)


87 posted on 05/05/2005 12:26:23 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I would rather stand with the few who are right than the many who are wrong!)
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To: MamaTexan

Thanks for the ping.

It looks like a great thread, but I'll have to get to it later.


92 posted on 05/05/2005 2:02:58 PM PDT by Badray (If you don't want to change your mind, at least get some more info and make a new decision.)
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