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To: StJacques; Alamo-Girl; marron; stripes1776; Taliesan; ckilmer; Eastbound; escapefromboston; ...
I want to return later to put up an additional post on something I think can help to inform its content, namely; the intellectual ferment within the Hellenistic and Roman world during the period of the rise of Christianity and specifically its integration of Greek philosophical ideas between the time of St. Paul and up to Augustine. The manner in which that ferment was resolved had tremendous implications for the development of scientific thought and the vestiges of this resolution remain with us today.

Oh, you are most welcome here, StJacques! Take all the time you need to do it; but I for one am waiting with "baited breath" for your exposition on these points.

Looking forward to hearing from you, I'm so glad for your post!

85 posted on 12/03/2004 6:42:32 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop; All
I’d like to offer some background information and links for the discussion.

Alexander the Great

betty boop noted that Alexander the Great was taught by Aristotle who was taught by Plato who was taught by Socrates. I'd like to add two comments:

(1) Alexander “normalized” the Greek language to a common Greek which greatly facilitated the spread of the Gospel and general knowledge throughout the Greek speaking world and

(2) Daniel prophesied about Alexander the Great. Josephus recorded this concerning the (alleged) confrontation with Alexander at Jerusalem:

Flavius Josephus in his Jewish antiquities 11.317-345

And when Jaddus understood that Alexander was not far from the city, he went out in procession, with the priests and the multitude of the citizens. The procession was venerable, and the manner of it different from that of other nations. It reached to a place called Sapha, which name, translated into Greek, signifies a prospect, for you have thence a prospect both of Jerusalem and of the temple. And when the Phoenicians and the Samarians that followed him thought they should have liberty to plunder the city, and torment the high-priest to death, which the king's displeasure fairly promised them, the very reverse of it happened; for Alexander, when he saw the multitude at a distance, in white garments, while the priests stood clothed with fine linen, and the high-priest in purple and scarlet clothing, with his mitre on his head, having the golden plate whereon the name of God was engraved, he approached by himself, and adored that name, and first saluted the high-priest.

The Jews also did all together, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; whereupon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind. However, Parmenion alone went up to him, and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high-priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, 'I did not adore him, but that God who has honored him with his highpriesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit, when I was at Dion in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is that, having seen no other in that habit, and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the Divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.'

And when he had said this to Parmenion, and had given the high-priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high-priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high-priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. [3] And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present. But the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him; whereupon the high-priest desired that they might enjoy the laws of their forefathers, and might pay no tribute on the seventh year.[4] He granted all they desired. And when they asked him that he would permit the Jews in Babylon and Media to enjoy their own laws also, he willingly promised to do hereafter what they desired. And when he said to the multitude, that if any of them would enlist themselves in his army, on this condition, that they should continue under the laws of their forefathers, and live according to them, he was willing to take them with him, many were ready to accompany him in his wars. …

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr is beautifully discussed in the above article. For anyone interested, I'd like to offer a link to his writings: Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I – First Apology of Justin Martyr

In the above, Martyr states that Plato had “borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world” from the Hebrew prophets (Moses in particular).

Martyr also believed that Plato was (unknowingly) speaking of Christ in Timoeus where he said "He placed him crosswise in the universe".

Philo of Alexandria

Philo hasn't been mentioned yet, but Lurkers may be interested in reading more about him: IEP: Philo of Alexandria

Philo was a Hellenized Jew who lived 20 BC to 50 AD, in Christ’s incarnate time on earth. He is noted for trying to reconcile Jewish thought with Greek philosophy.

Of particular interest to this discussion might be his Model of Creation and his response to Eternal Creation:

Thus Philo postulates a crucial modification to the Platonic doctrine of the Forms, namely that God himself eternally creates the intelligible world of Ideas as his thoughts. The intelligible Forms are thus the principle of existence to the sensible things which are given through them their existence. This simply means in mystical terms that nothing exists or acts except God. On this ideal model God then orders and shapes the formless matter through the agency of his Logos (Her. 134, 140) into the objects of the sensible world:

Now we must form a somewhat similar opinion of God [Philo makes an analogy to a plan of the city in the mind of its builder], who, having determined to found a mighty state, first of all conceived its form in his mind, according to which form he made a world perceptible only by the intellect, and then completed one visible to the external senses, using the first one as a model (Op. 19).

Philo claims a scriptural support for these metaphysics saying that the creation of the world was after the pattern of an intelligible world (Gen. 1:17) which served as its model.

88 posted on 12/03/2004 9:46:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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