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To: StJacques; betty boop
Thank you so much for your excellent essay post, StJacques! It was quite an engaging tour of the history of philosophy, in particular with reference to science.

All I can add is for any Lurker interested in reading more about a personal testimony of one of the earliest Church Fathers: Justin Marytr's (100-165 A.D.) dialogue with Trypho.

In this excerpt, Martyr describes his own path in studying philosophy: (I took the liberty of making paragraph breaks for easier reading) -

Justin Martyr

CHAP. II.--JUSTIN DESCRIBES HIS STUDIES IN PHILOSOPHY.

"I will tell you," said I, "what seems to me; for philosophy is, in fact, the greatest possession, and most honourable before God,(1) to whom it leads us and alone commends us; and these are truly holy men who have bestowed attention on philosophy. What philosophy is, however, and the reason why it has been sent down to men, have escaped the observation of most; for there would be neither Platonists, nor Stoics, nor Peripatetics, nor Theoretics,(2) nor Pythagoreans, this knowledge being one.(3)

I wish to tell you why it has become many-headed. It has happened that those who first handled it [i.e., philosophy], and who were therefore esteemed illustrious men, were succeeded by those who made no investigations concerning truth, but only admired the perseverance and self-discipline of the former, as well as the novelty of the doctrines; and each thought that to be true which he learned from his teacher: then, moreover, those latter persons handed down to their successors such things, and others similar to them; and this system was called by the name of him who was styled the father of the doctrine.

Being at first desirous of personally conversing with one of these men, I surrendered myself to a certain Stoic; and having spent a considerable time with him, when I had not acquired any further knowledge of God (for he did not know himself, and said such instruction was unnecessary), I left him and betook myself to another, who was called a Peripatetic, and as he fancied, shrewd. And this man, after having entertained me for the first few days, requested me to settle the fee, in order that our intercourse might not be unprofitable. Him, too, for this reason I abandoned, believing him to be no philosopher at all.

But when my soul was eagerly desirous to hear the peculiar and choice philosophy, I came to a Pythagorean, very celebrated--a man who thought much of his own wisdom. And then, when I had an interview with him, willing to become his hearer and disciple, he said, 'What then? Are you acquainted with music, astronomy, and geometry? Do you expect to perceive any of those things which conduce to a happy life, if you have not been first informed on those points which wean the soul from sensible objects, and render it fitted for objects which appertain to the mind, so that it can contemplate that which is honourable in its essence and that which is good in its essence?' Having commended many of these branches of learning, and telling me that they were necessary, he dismissed me when I confessed to him my ignorance.

Accordingly I took it rather impatiently, as was to be expected when I failed in my hope, the more so because I deemed the man had some knowledge; but reflecting again on the space of time during which I would have to linger over those branches of learning, I was not able to endure longer procrastination.

In my helpless condition it occurred to me to have a meeting with the Platonists, for their fame was great. I thereupon spent as much of my time as possible with one who had lately settled in our city,(4)--a sagacious man, holding a high position among the Platonists,--and I progressed, and made the greatest improvements daily. And the perception of immaterial things quite overpowered me, and the contemplation of ideas furnished my mind with wings,(5) so that in a little while I supposed that I had become wise; and such was my stupidity, I expected forthwith to look upon God, for this is the end of Plato's philosophy.

(some really great chapters omitted here in the interest of bandwidth…)

VI.--THESE THINGS WERE UNKNOWN PLATO AND OTHER PHILOSOPHERS.

"'It makes no matter to me,' said he, 'whether Plato or Pythagoras, or, in short, any other man held such opinions. For the truth is so; and you would perceive it from this. The soul assuredly is or has life. If, then, it is life, it would cause something else, and not itself, to live, even as motion would move something else than itself. Now, that the soul lives, no one would deny. But if it lives, it lives not as being life, but as the partaker of life; but that which partakes of anything, is different from that of which it does partake. Now the soul partakes of life, since God wills it to live. Thus, then, it will not even partake [of life] when God does not will it to live. For to live is not its attribute, as it is God's; but as a man does not live always, and the soul is not for ever conjoined with the body, since, whenever this harmony must be broken up, the soul leaves the body, and the man exists no longer; even so, whenever the soul must cease to exist, the spirit of life is removed from it, and there is no more soul, but it goes back to the place from whence it was taken.'

CHAP. VII.--THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH TO BE SOUGHT FROM THE PROPHETS ALONE.

"'Should any one, then, employ a teacher?' I say, 'or whence may any one be helped, if not even in them there is truth?'

"'There existed, long before this time, certain men more ancient than all those who are esteemed philosophers, both righteous and beloved by God, who spoke by the Divine Spirit, and foretold events which would take place, and which are now taking place. They are called prophets. These alone both saw and announced the truth to men, neither reverencing nor fearing any man, not influenced by a desire for glory, but speaking those things alone which they saw and which they heard, being filled with the Holy Spirit. Their writings are still extant, and he who has read them is very much helped in his knowledge of the beginning and end of things, and of those matters which the philosopher ought to know, provided he has believed them.

For they did not use demonstration in their treatises, seeing that they were witnesses to the truth above all demonstration, and worthy of belief; and those events which have happened, and those which are happening, compel you to assent to the utterances made by them, although, indeed, they were entitled to credit on account of the miracles which they performed, since they both glorified the Creator, the God and Father of all things, and proclaimed His Son, the Christ [sent] by Him: which, indeed, the false prophets, who are filled with the lying unclean spirit, neither have done nor do, but venture to work certain wonderful deeds for the purpose of astonishing men, and glorify the spirits and demons of error.

But pray that, above all things, the gates of light may be opened to you; for these things cannot be perceived or understood by all, but only by the man to whom God and His Christ have imparted wisdom.'

CHAP. VIII.--JUSTIN BY HIS COLLOQUY IS KINDLED WITH LOVE TO CHRIST.

"When he had spoken these and many other things, which there is no time for mentioning at present, he went away, bidding me attend to them; and I have not seen him since. But straightway a flame was kindled in my soul; and a love of the prophets, and of those men who are friends of Christ, possessed me; and whilst revolving his words in my mind, I found this philosophy alone to be safe and profitable. Thus, and for this reason, I am a philosopher. Moreover, I would wish that all, making a resolution similar to my own, do not keep themselves away from the words of the Saviour. For they possess a terrible power in themselves, and are sufficient to inspire those who turn aside from the path of rectitude with awe; while the sweetest rest is afforded those who make a diligent practice of them. If, then, you have any concern for yourself, and if you are eagerly looking for salvation, and if you believe in God, you may--since you are not indifferent to the matter.(1)--become acquainted with the Christ of God, and, after being initiated,(2) live a happy life."


169 posted on 12/06/2004 9:49:26 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thanks for the reply Alamo-Girl. I am familiar with Justin.

Since some of the ideas present in Justin's dialog, and I speak especially of Platonic thought being an underpinning for Christian theology and the "words of the Prophets" being truth, equivalent to "Revelation as Knowledge" in Augustine, I would like to mention something I thought about including in what I wrote on Augustine, but omitted for space, which is that in many respects Augustine represents a synthesis of many ideas of Christian belief present in the Graeco-Roman world but not yet pulled together in a coherent and cohesive body of thought. But if I introduce synthesis, then I can go on and on without end. Lord knows I put up enough to chew on in what I did write.
171 posted on 12/06/2004 10:02:24 PM PST by StJacques
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To: Alamo-Girl
"All I can add is for any Lurker interested in reading more about a personal testimony of one of the earliest Church Fathers: Justin Marytr's (100-165 A.D.) dialogue with Trypho."

A link from my personal archives: Justin Martyr / Typhro a Jew

179 posted on 12/07/2004 8:29:34 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; StJacques; Agrarian; marron
Thank you oh so much, for posting St. Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho! The Platonic concepts seem unmistakeable; but Justin "renews them" by means of his experience in the Holy Spirit, which enlightens them; from whence they proceed into the distinctively Christian philosophy. Indeed, Christ makes all things new....

Thank you, thank you!

195 posted on 12/08/2004 10:09:47 AM PST by betty boop
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