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Getting the intergalactic message across is easier said than done
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE ^ | Saturday, November 27, 2004 | Scott LaFee

Posted on 11/27/2004 6:25:11 AM PST by Momaw Nadon

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FYI and discussion
1 posted on 11/27/2004 6:25:11 AM PST by Momaw Nadon
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To: Momaw Nadon
"The final frontier."

Billions and billions of chances to find ET. Imagine Pioneer wandering into a space trade lane like a dingy lost in a giant ocean highway of tankers or ore carries. The dingy would probably cause major confusion for a moment before being creamed by a larger vehicle. Space being 3 dimensional means that finding that highway would be very hard.

Thanks for posting it - great article!!!

"to boldly go..."

2 posted on 11/27/2004 6:37:21 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Off to the store for Marlboro reds and Miller High Life. NSDQ)
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To: Momaw Nadon
I liked the "don't break this chain" bit, but got worried. Supposed we get a lot more illegal aliens? Has Congress made allowance for special work permits for the "Slags"? Will Ahhhnold grant Drivers' Licenses? Then there is the whole issue of welfare, taxes etc. I say leave them where they are.

Scotty, sand by to energize.....

3 posted on 11/27/2004 6:37:47 AM PST by -=Wing_0_Walker=-
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To: Momaw Nadon

As a technogeek, I enjoy discussions of technology and the frontiers we have yet to conquer. Given the size of the galaxy, SETI could invest the next million years or so trying to communicate with alien life. While I think it possible that there are other life forms in the galaxy, our efforts to contact them to date are somewhat laughable, at best.

We need a means of sending out a mass mailing that has the capability to deliver a message and receive a response within a generation in order for the communication to be meaningful. Currently, physicists are working on teleportation and have succeeded in teleporting an atom back in time by one second. Granted, that's a baby step, but the potential is that by the end of this century, if development continues and if raw power requirements do not emerge as a limiting factor, we could be able to teleport physical messages across the galaxy.

Short of that, we need the means of capturing some of those alien space ships that infrequently visit our planet and find out where they are from. Then we take them to McDonalds and introduce them to earth food. (Yes, that's a joke)

The long and short of it is this - Star Trek doesn't have to remain in the realm of science-fiction. Throughout history, science-fiction has consistently found a way to become science fact. Absent the ability to short-circuit the space-time continuum (not on the radar screen at present, to the best of my knowledge), our best hope of contacting other life forms may well rest with whatever advances we may make with teleportation.


4 posted on 11/27/2004 6:54:11 AM PST by DustyMoment (Repeal CFR NOW!!)
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To: Momaw Nadon
This idea of trying to signal our presence to the universe might possibly turn out to be a really bad one.

The alien from Predator is quite as likely as the one from ET to show up in response.

5 posted on 11/27/2004 6:56:47 AM PST by Restorer (Europe is heavily armed, but only with envy.)
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To: Momaw Nadon
There have been many "false hope" messages received in the past. Most of them originated from earth years ago, and having traveled in space until bouncing off a terrestrial body and returning back to earth.

This was once labeled "Pluto Bounce", but I am sure there is a more modern label attached to the phenomenon.

Moon Bounce, also known to Ham Radio operators as EME (Earth Moon Earth) is a form of communications used on VHF Frequencies and above. It relies on the minimal (some consider it to be zero) attenuation of radio signals traveling in free space. In earth speak, this means that a radio signal traveling up does not lose any power. When it is traveling from one point to another for terrestrial (earth) communications, a VHF (and higher) signal is limited by the curvature of the earth, and is considered a "line of sight" transmission - as a rule. Once it is directed up, it is theoretically unlimited in it's travel.

"Pluto Bounce" has allowed for the reception of Television and radio signals from stations that "went dark" (have been off the air) years ago. This proves the concept of the speed of light, and gives an indication of how far the signal traveled; once the original broadcast date can be confirmed.

I have made use of "Meteor Scatter" to make contacts with stations normally far beyond the range of VHF communications. This is a method of bouncing a signal; off the rock concentration during peak meteor showers at various times of the year.

There is certainly something else up there. The techniques of communications are expanding by leaps and bounds, and sooner or later someone is going to receive somethigng that wasn't originated on earth.

I hope we know what to do with it when it happens...
6 posted on 11/27/2004 6:57:59 AM PST by Dalite (If PRO is the opposite of CON, What is the opposite of PROgress? Go Figure....)
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To: Momaw Nadon
I like the idea of trying to talk to some other enties, but who says that they are not watching us. Our electromagnetic signals have been leaving our planet since the early 1900's. Some of those signals show us [on this planet] at our worst [WWI,WWII, Korea,Vietnam,ect...] [And our best rescue efforts, disaster relief ect...]
Maybe they [the ET's] are observing us from a distance [say the outer system limits] trying to figure out when and if it safe to contact us.
7 posted on 11/27/2004 7:10:53 AM PST by TMSuchman (American by birth,rebel by choice, MARINE BY GOD!)
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To: Restorer
The alien from Predator is quite as likely as the one from ET to show up in response.

Perhaps. But a world of vicious Predator-like monsters would not develop advanced technology, or last long if it did. Our chances of contacting it are small. If we do contact another form of intelligent life, by the rules of probability, it will be a very stable and long-lived society that has solved the problems of war and strife.

Personally, I am coming to believe that they are not out there, or we would have found proof by now. We're it, guys, the pinnacle of creation.

-ccm

8 posted on 11/27/2004 7:11:44 AM PST by ccmay
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To: Dalite
a radio signal traveling up does not lose any power.... Once it is directed up, it is theoretically unlimited in it's travel.

Yes and no. The net energy of the signal in free space, integrated over the entire wave front, is undimmed. But the photon flux at any given point on the wave front falls off in accord with the inverse-square law. That is why radio telescopes are so large. The measurable signal power at any given point falls off pretty rapidly with distance, all other factors (like antenna size) being equal.

-ccm

9 posted on 11/27/2004 7:17:58 AM PST by ccmay
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To: Dalite
This idea of trying to signal our presence to the universe might possibly turn out to be a really bad one.

If there was ever any doubt about our existence to ET it was eliminated in August of 1945.

Moon Bounce, also known to Ham Radio operators as EME (Earth Moon Earth) is a form of communications used on VHF Frequencies and above.

I had a neighbor for about 10 years that was big into Ham Radio. His claim to fame was that he had talked to all 50 states using moon bounce and, according to him, he was one of the first 100 or so to do it. He messed up his eyes doing it because he used a yaggi antenna and aimed it visually. The back lobe of the signal created by the antenna fried his retinas.

10 posted on 11/27/2004 7:22:47 AM PST by Thermalseeker
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To: ccmay

I agree. God had to start somewhere. No matter what way you look at creation (Evolutionism or Creationism) the Universe has a finite begining. You have to start somewhere! We know there is life here. Until we find evidence of something or someone else out there, I will maintain that there isn't any.

The Universe is ours. Now all we have to do is go take it!


11 posted on 11/27/2004 7:32:50 AM PST by Conan the Librarian (The Best in Life is to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and the Dewey Decimal System)
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To: Thermalseeker
The back lobe of the signal created by the antenna fried his retinas.

Right up there with the "my cellphone fried my brain" stories.

12 posted on 11/27/2004 7:33:49 AM PST by Erasmus ((The IQ of the average Freeper is slightly less than body temperature. Kelvin.))
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To: ccmay

I'm not sure I agree completely with you.

It does indeed seem likely that any species which developed interstellar travel would have moved beyond intra-species warfare. Any species which did not get past this would probably exterminate themselves.

However, I can easily envision an advanced species, completely peaceful among themselves, which believed it to be their racial duty to dominate or exterminate all other forms of intelligent life.

After all, the Nazis were in many ways more technologically advanced than the Allies in WWII. Many of the most advanced contributors to the development of the atom bomb were refugees from the Nazis. A slightly less virulent form of racism would have allowed the Nazis to take advantage of their expertise and we would have been in serious trouble.

Interstellar Nazis on a mission to purify the universe from lower forms of life!

Sounds to me like a good reason to keep a low galactic profile.


13 posted on 11/27/2004 7:41:25 AM PST by Restorer (Europe is heavily armed, but only with envy.)
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To: Dalite

""Pluto Bounce" has allowed for the reception of Television and radio signals from stations that "went dark" (have been off the air) years ago. This proves the concept of the speed of light, and gives an indication of how far the signal traveled; once the original broadcast date can be confirmed."


The "Pluto Bounce" would only let you see stations that went dark about "11 hours" ago, not years ago.

Pluto is only about 5.5 lighthours away, not multiple lightyears.

So I could watch last night's Leno if I forgot to record it.


14 posted on 11/27/2004 7:49:03 AM PST by chaosagent (It's all right to be crazy. Just don't let it drive you nuts.)
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To: Erasmus
Right up there with the "my cellphone fried my brain" stories.

Apples and oranges. You cell phone doesn't fry you brain or cause cancer because you body is comprised primarily of water and the RF energy won't penetrate your body such low power levels (.6 watts on a typical handheld cell phone) It's called skin effect. RF doesn't like to penetrate water unless it is highly concentrated and relatively high power, like in a microwave oven (800-1000 watts typically). Your eyeballs, and in particular your retinas, are easily damaged by RF, particularly concentrated, higher frequency RF. I've commissioned about 7,000 cellular telephone sites and about 1,500 terrestrial microwave sites in the past 16 years and I assure you I take great strides to protect myself from RF exposure, especially to the eyes, when I'm working with higher power, higher frequency stuff.

15 posted on 11/27/2004 7:56:01 AM PST by Thermalseeker
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To: Restorer
Sounds to me like a good reason to keep a low galactic profile.

Opps! Too late for that........

16 posted on 11/27/2004 7:57:33 AM PST by Thermalseeker
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To: Restorer; ccmay

There's no guarantee, in my view, that alien intelligence will be even remotely similar to our own. Given enough difference in degree of intelligence, or even mode of perception, an alien life form could well consider itself to be "moral" without considering our species to be of any value.


17 posted on 11/27/2004 8:03:44 AM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Sam Cree

Good point. I just think it is ludicrous for us to assume that any other species we come in contact will inherently be wise and benevolent.

Just imagine another species making a similar assumption about us.

Big mistake.

Obviously, the ability to travel between the stars presupposes a high technological level.

But technology is morally neutral. And another species might have an utterly different definition of morality, one which could include a moral obligation to wipe us out.


18 posted on 11/27/2004 8:09:55 AM PST by Restorer (Europe is heavily armed, but only with envy.)
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To: Erasmus
"Right up there with the "my cellphone fried my brain" stories."

Wavelength plays in there. What is the wavelength of you cell phone in relationship to the average height of folks using them.

When someone is using a highly directional antenna, it highly directs the signal. Gain is also an important factor, and in UHF (and above frequencies) used for EME< it is easy to create an unbelievable amount of gain in a small package.

You will find that antenna gain is far more important than brute force power levels.

Terms such as ERP (Effective Radiated Power) indicate the actual output of a transmission system taken into account power fed to it, gain if antenna and loss of coaxial cable between transmitter.

IN the case of your cell phone, if you were using an older car phone, which you were able to hold next to your noggin'; you would get a maximum of 3 watts exposure - only if you were between cells and the control channel was telling your phone to transmit at maximum power.

If you are using a handportable (Handheld cellphone), the max it can squeak out is .6 watt. Both signals going out through an omnidirectional antenna that offers little (if any) gain. Most cell antennas are designed as "helical dummy loads" - geared more toward protecting the output stage of the phone from damage that providing gain.

To summarize, if someone is boresighting a target using a highly directional antenna that is actively emitting a signal. there is a very good chance for retinal damage. I

However, if someone is holding a cell phone that is transmitting a maximum of .6 watt through a lossy antenna system that is designed to be more of an idiot proof appendage than one offering even unity gain, it is unlikely that any brain heating; much less the famed 41.11 Celsius will ever occur.
19 posted on 11/27/2004 9:25:44 AM PST by Dalite (If PRO is the opposite of CON, What is the opposite of PROgress? Go Figure....)
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To: ccmay
"Yes and no. The net energy of the signal in free space, integrated over the entire wave front, is undimmed. But the photon flux at any given point on the wave front falls off in accord with the inverse-square law. That is why radio telescopes are so large. The measurable signal power at any given point falls off pretty rapidly with distance, all other factors (like antenna size) being equal."

All absolutely true. That is what I used the term theoretically. However, I should have been more consistent throughout.

I have worked through satellites in High earth Orbit distance with less than 25 watts output.

All satellites must be self sustaining, generating their own power. For this reason, their actual output power is very small.

Handheld dualband rigs using a handheld cross polarized antenna have been used to make LEO (low earth orbiter) contacts (Approx 400 miles) with less than 1 watt.

I have made contacts to/through MIR, STS Shuttle SAREX equipped missions and ISS using 50 watts or less an antenna with no gain at all

That kind of distance using relatively low power demonstrates very minimal real-world attenuation; which is the point that I was trying to make.
20 posted on 11/27/2004 9:36:35 AM PST by Dalite (If PRO is the opposite of CON, What is the opposite of PROgress? Go Figure....)
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