Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: willyboyishere
You still haven't answered my question about the use of the word "manipulated".

you show yourself to be someone willing to assume something you can't possibly know, but only want to believe.

Please, don't lecture me on "wanting to believe". First of all, is there any doubt in your mind what anybody here, including me, would believe, if any other country in the world treated American prisoners in exactly the same fashion by any other country and if as much documented evidence came to light about that country's policies regarding prisoners? Are you in any doubt that the North Vietnamese torture of prisoners was policy? Are you in any doubt that the Japanese treatment of prisoners in WWII was policy? Are you in any doubt that the Iraqi treatment of prisoners during Saddam's reign was policy? Did you have (prior to the war) documented evidence that those policies went right up to Saddam? Secondly, if you think I want to believe that our government sanctions torture, you're very sadly mistaken. I didn't want to believe, nor DID I believe that My Lai was anything but an aberration. Nor do I believe differently to this day. But you'd be right in assuming that I do not believe the refusal to honor Red Cross requests for standard wartime information is the act of a handful of low level individuals.

Ok, I said the top, specifically Rumsfeld and Gonzales. Well, since I'm not great on recollecting details and can't recall off the top of my head where to find the documented memos from Rumsfeld on that score, I'll drop that one. But Gonzales and his memos are a very different matter. It has nothing to do with anything I want to believe.

You ask about people who did not participate in abuses and whether they should be up on charges. Well, you tell me? What were the principles of Nuremberg?

Atmosphere and license is one very wide and amorphous concept.

There's no argument that atmosphere and license are very hard to quantify, but to argue that they aren't important or even that they aren't major factors in these things is to deny reality. Corporations know better about such things - the smart ones, the really big ones, spend huge amounts of money on experts in such vague and amorphous areas because they know that these things make huge differences in money - they may be hard to quantify, but money is not. And these factors, that you wish to dismiss so easily because they're more difficult to quantify, are hugely important in the behaviour of an organization collectively, regardless of what that organization is a business or an army.

Now, if you insist, I'll locate and post documented evidence on Gonzales' influence in these things. And if I do, I think we'll see then who is influenced by what they WANT to believe. Since Gonzales at the time had no actual direct decision making power, I guess we'll just have to ask ourselves if we want to believe that his bosses (such as the president of the United States) just ignored his advice or not and which was more likely, given the microscopic evidence.

Sometimes finding out what one's own government is doing is like gathering intelligence. You gather scattered bits of information and then you make guesses as to what the most likely conclusions are that one can make about the broader picture. If you want to call that "wanting to believe", go ahead.

But dare I suggest that on many other things, that many people will quite happily assume that where there is smoke, there must be fire?

503 posted on 11/22/2004 9:06:36 AM PST by Lifted Spirits
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 502 | View Replies ]


To: Lifted Spirits

I have to admit that I no longer know quite what the subject is or what is trying to be clarified.
But to answer your question, I suppose "manipulated"
is used in its literal sense of "handled". In the sense of "put forth as".
ANYWAY, didn't mean to lecture you on anything.
The points I usually try to make in my posts are almost never picked up by anybody in the way I mean them.
I can see you take this discussion protocol on FR very seriously. Very few contributors go on with the detail and as much length as you do. Kudos.


506 posted on 11/22/2004 8:11:42 PM PST by willyboyishere
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 503 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson