I know this is going to drive everyone here nuts, but remember what we're dealing with here. The dem media had no problem with a draft dodger for president, why would they have a problem with someone who received a dishonorable discharge.
This is a pretty damning case. I hope this somehow works its way into tonight's debate. I'd like to see Bush point blank challenge Kerry to sign the form 180.
"What are you hiding, Mr. Kerry? The American people have the right to know before they trust you with the presidency."
I'm skeptical this will get any traction..hope i'm wrong
BUMP
ping
BTTT
Fascinating read, guys....
bump
Several people have wondered how sKerry's Release from Active Duty documents compare with a run of the mill officer of that era.
I just took the trouble of getting out my DD214 and posting certain specific information from it. I entered active duty 8yrs after sKerry did, but I apparently was discharged before he got his final discharge in 1985 or so... I have gotten NO other official communications regarding my release from Active Duty from DoD since my separation in 1981. This DD214 was the last official action they took on my behalf regarding whether or not I was honorably discharged.
You might like to take a look at the items I posted, in #238...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1243544/posts?page=238#238
I like Arizona Carolyn's take on this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1243544/posts?page=27#27
I now believe it is absolutely safe to state that sKerry DID NOT get an honorable discharge. After he became a liberal politician in Massachuetts he managed to buy or wheedle one somehow. He can prove me wrong by producing his original DD214 as I am able to myself, instead of records from later than 1973.
Sen.Kerry: Please SIGN STANDARD FORM 180 and show us the truth.
[[Please feel free to copy this to other threads if it seems appropriate.]]
Correct me if I'm wrong but when my ex retired from the Navy, he was told he had to stay in reserve status for 10 years. He retired about 1980 with 20 years.
A PING and a PRAYER! (oh please, oh please, oh please...)
BTTT.
All former Navy o with legal seperations experience (legal o for my ship/assited base jag on seps)
There are 7 classifications of discharge for officers
Dishonorable
Bad conduct
Dismissal (officers only)
other than honorable
honorable
General (under honorable conditions)
Uncharacterized
The first 3 DD/BCD/Dismissal can only be awarded at a court-martial. However, this did not need to be a trial jury as a Summary CM can be handled at a COs level if they are at the appropriate command level.
An OTH is not uncommon for those who have been in trouble. Administrative boards may be convened by any CO and must contain a minimum of 3 persons. They make 2 determinations: retain/not retain. If not retain, characterization of the discharge. For enlisted members the minimum senior officer was a LCDR (O-4) one member could be enlisted - and we normally chose this option for two reasons (they were harder and they understood the sailors situation better). I never saw an officer seperated via this method but it was possible. It would likely require a more senior officer to chair.
If he was seperated involuntarily via this method then it could have either Uncharacterized or General. It is very difficult to upgrade an OTH to an Honorable; however, I have seen Generals upgraded several times to Honorable after a few years of seperation. Have never heard of an Uncharacterized discharge being issued.
Having worked on about 100 admin discharges from 1991-1994, I would guess that he was subjected to an administrative board and received a general, or was subjected to a Summary CM and a Dismissal. If it was any type of CM then it should be open to FOIA requests as these are trials - just under UCMJ jurisdiction. Would start with his last command and work up through the command chain. If it was administrative in nature then this would be closed as part of his record, but command retention records (open to FOIA) may be able to piece together if any officers were released under other than normal means. In addition command logs may note convening of CMs if local - I know we had to note on the deck logs if convened onboard ship.
Given all this I would guess that the situation was likely handled administratively - tends to be quieter and is a LOT quicker. The review board convened later would be able to upgrade his characterization after reviewing. I see this as the most likely scenario.
Also I do not believe I ever received anything besides my DD214 - no special certificate or anything. The DD214 would be the official documentation. I was seperated for failure to promote - passed over twice (used to be 3 times) - no special documentation required for that they just notify you and that is it. My committement was 5 active, 3 reserve - which I extended beyond the min for reserve purposes. Again nothing special when they seperated me just notification and normal outprocessing.
Sorry for being so windy. Just my 2 cents.
USNA '89
LT (USN 89-94/USNR 94-01)
The enclosed brings up a new issue. I had noticed that his discharge >was dated in 2001 but didn't think much about it. The enclosed raises >some interesting aspects.
>
"Unlike McCain, Bush, and Gore, while Kerry has adamantly refused to >authorize the release of his military records. Most think it's because >of his phony battle medals. I think the real reason is below. He was >not granted an Honorable Discharge until March 2001, almost 30 years >after his ostensible service term had ended! This is very much out of >the ordinary, and highly suspect.
>
There are 5 classes of Discharge: Honorable, General, Other Than Honorable, >Bad Conduct, and Dishonorable. My guess is that he was Discharged in >the '70s, but not Honorably. He appealed this sometime while Clinton >was doing trouser-tricks in the Oval Office. Political pressure was >applied, and the Honorable Discharge was then granted. His file is >probably rife with reports of this, submissions and hearings on the >appeal, reports of his "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy, along >with protests that were filed with respect to his alleged valor under fire.
> This will blow up in his face before October 15th.
bump
I can see the headline now:
Kerry Dishonorably Discharged Before He Was Honorably Discharged
Yeah, right.
Thanks for the heads up, Grampa Dave!
Please FReepmail me if you want on or off my infrequent ‘miscellaneous’ ping list.
I'd stay away from this. I spent 26 years in Naval Reserve on active duty as Full Time Support. Two tour on Commander Naval Reserve Force. [1980-86 and 1989-92]. Know a ‘little’ about reserve administration [enough to get me in trouble – was Aviation Electronics Technician]
Occasionally people confuse enlisted 'contracts' and officer commissions.
Why would a board be reviewing John Kerry’s record. To determine whether the Naval Reserve wants to keep him in the Standby Reserve-Inactive (USNR-S2). John Kerry was transferred to Standby Reserve-Inactive (USNR-S1) when released from active duty [Why when he had reserve obligation to drill – probably waived]. After his 6 years 'obligated' service was up, he did not resign his commission. He would have been transferred to S2 status. After 3 years his record should have been periodically reviewed to determine whether the Navy had any reason to retain him. It appears in FEB 1978 the board decided to honorably discharge him rather than keep him in an S2 status.
From: http://www.bupers.navy.mil/pers9/pers91/IDTAT.htm
Q: Is there a minimum participation requirement to maintain my commission?
A: Yes. Records are routinely screened to ensure members are actively participating in the Reserve program. If a member's record indicates they are not participating, they will be notified by letter that they are being considered for removal from Ready Reserve or Standby Reserve-Active (USNR-S1) status. Based on the member's response, they may be transferred to Standby Reserve-Inactive (USNR-S2) status or allowed to remain in the Ready Reserve. Personnel remaining in the Ready Reserve may participate by completing correspondence courses or by drilling. Officers transferred to Standby Reserve-Inactive (USNR-S2) status may remain in that status for up to 3 years before they are screened for discharge.
Note: They are 'SCREENED'. And the US code that replaces 1162 does talk about involuntary separation and the officers rights. But not the way the article insinuates. US Code 12681 was updated because of drawdown and mandatory transition assistance regulations. John Kerry was involuntarily separated IAW 1162 and 1163 because he did not resign his commission.
Reference: [1162 & 1163] of Title 10 was replaced on 5 OCT 1994 by section 12681. Nothing in this code leads me to believe this had anything to do with changing less than honorable to honorable discharges.
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t09t12+3351+39++%28military%20-%20discharge%20of%20reserve%20officers%29%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
Like I said, I’d stay away from this unless someone shows you a dishonorable discharge certificate.
Retired Navy Senior Chief
RNC / BC 04 member # 186675671