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1 posted on 09/08/2004 8:15:01 AM PDT by quidnunc
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To: Tolik

FYI


2 posted on 09/08/2004 8:15:26 AM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc

I think the Palestinians indeed have a right to freedom. They have every opportunity to integrate into Israeli society and become a productive member of it.


4 posted on 09/08/2004 8:24:06 AM PDT by aviator (Armored Pest Control)
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To: quidnunc

You're right -- the answer to the first question is a good response. VDH was a little more polite than I would have been, but basically I think he speaks for a lot of us.


6 posted on 09/08/2004 8:28:27 AM PDT by 68skylark
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To: quidnunc

I am American born of German decent, and I can't for the life of me understand why the Palestinians think they can kill Israeli's and not suffer any consequences.


7 posted on 09/08/2004 8:30:13 AM PDT by FesterUSMC
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To: quidnunc

"Do the Palestinians have a right to freedom from the illegal Israeli occupation?"

The Palestinians lost all moral right to anything long ago -- the day their ambush team let the Israeli army patrol go by and waited for the Israeli schoolbus.


8 posted on 09/08/2004 8:31:15 AM PDT by omega4412
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To: quidnunc

VDH : One of the best minds of our times.


9 posted on 09/08/2004 8:32:16 AM PDT by mondoman (The terrorism attack in Beslan is ALL George W. Bush's fault! (OOPS))
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To: quidnunc
Anyone know of any *respectable* sources on the history of the Israeli vs. Arab/Palestinian issue? Personally, I'm acquanted with a basic outline of the historical events, but I admit there are a lot of gaps in my knowledge of the issue. Any recommendations on historical reference? Thanks.
10 posted on 09/08/2004 8:41:07 AM PDT by sigarms
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To: quidnunc; seamole; Lando Lincoln; .cnI redruM; yonif; SJackson; dennisw; monkeyshine; Alouette; ...
Victor Davis Hanson:

I don’t want to get into 50 years of acrimonious history in this short (?) answer, and feel most Americans like myself support some sort of autonomous Palestinian state with perhaps 95% of the territory of the West Bank. But remember any outstanding difference between the two sides might be adjudicated—if there were two roughly equal parties at the table.

There are not. On the one side, you have a free press, open society, gender equality, and democratic government with a vocal opposition; on the other, you have one rigged election/one time, lawlessness, Arafat’s censorship, and thuggery in lieu of politics—not unlike Saddam’s Iraq, Khadafy’s Libya, or Assad’s Syria.

Don’t tell me this is “radicalization” because of this or that gripe; rather, ask why is there not a single Arab democracy in the Middle East? Colonialism or Cold War realpolitik was the excuse for 40 years, but its shelf life is over, and we need to hear some new reason that forbids 300 million from voting.

No, when we look around the world and see terrorists killing in Russia, Israel, Madrid, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Spain, and on and on, we see a generic pattern that transcends the politics of the day. Of course not every Muslim is a terrorist, but we are getting to the point that every fascist terrorist is nearly always a Muslim it seems. Why so?

The answer is that instead of blaming Israel, the United States, or the man in the moon for Arab problems—sit down, take a deep breadth and ask yourself, ‘Why is there no democracy, no equality of the sexes, no religious tolerance, no free press, no loyal opposition in a Syria, Yemen, Libya, etc.’—or why do Arabs not vote freely except in the United States, France, or in the case of those one million Arabs who live in Israel of all places?

Look at China or South America who have very little oil or natural resources, and yet are restructuring their societies to meet new challenges rather than blaming the British for the Opium Wars or trashing the United States for the United Fruit Company. I am very worried about the Islamic world’s obliviousness about the radical shift in world opinion. The globe no longer has any patience at all with suicide bombers, car explosives, beheadings, and all the other nonsense that is now offered daily on our screens for the various causes of Chechnyan independence, Arafat’s autonomy, a return to Baathism, a theocratic state in Afghanistan, or a return of Spain to the Moors, and on and on.

We are simply tired of it. If the Palestinians had open and fair elections, a free press, nonviolent politics, and peaceful civil protests, then a great deal of their grievances would be addressed. But until then I am afraid that the average citizen of the world turns on the TV set, looks at some teen-ager burning some flag and shooting off a machine gun, or watches one of those barbaric last farewells of suicide bombers, and then simply flips the channel, and sighs, “enough of that nonsense.”

The Arab leadership should ask itself, why are 4 billion Anglo-Americans, Chinese, Indians, Japanese, Russians, black Africans, and Latin Americans coming to the consensus that something is very very wrong in the Islamic world and it has nothing to do with outside parties—but everything to do with a failure to address self-induced misery that involved everything from patriarchy and tribalism to religious intolerance and autocracy. I’m again sorry, but after the last two weeks of daily killing, I have no patience with the same old, same old “Israel is to blame.”

In the time you wrote that question, more poor unarmed Black Africans were butchered by Arabs in the Sudan than all the Palestinian militants killed in the last month by the Israelis—but the Arab-American community is absolutely silent to the tens of thousand murdered in Darfur by Arab Muslims who identify themselves as such as a reason for their pursuit of genocide.



    Victor Davis Hanson Ping ! 

11 posted on 09/08/2004 9:25:20 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: quidnunc
What is your opinion on the solution? Do the Palestinians have a right to freedom from the illegal Israeli occupation?

There is no "illegal occupation". No one was whining about a Palistinian state when the West Bank belonged to Jordan. Even that was a violation of the earlier agreements which gave all the land between the Jordan and the sea to the Jews. The Arabs, including the so called Palistinian Arabs, got Trans-Jordan, ie. the land accross the Jordan river, which is now known as merely Jordan. The Arabs, specifically the Arab Legion, took that land by force of arms during the first Arab Israeli war (aka the war for Israeli independence). The Israelies took it back in 1967 in the so called "Six Day war". The Jordanians have, IIRC, given up all claim to the land. Thus the land belongs to and forms a part of Israel. The Israelies were perfectly willilng to share it with the Arabs then living there in a non sectarian state, but Yassar wants not to share, but to governrule all of it, plus the rest of "Palistine", from the Jordan to the Sea.

14 posted on 09/08/2004 10:23:33 AM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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