Karina: Am I Conservative, Rush?

RushLimbaugh.com ^ | July 9, 2004 | Rush Limbaugh

[ChadGore]

Which Karina is this ?

[fish hawk]

I've always wanted to meet you but I was too shy. Just trip me next time I come by. Don't worry about Frank, I have plenty on him.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

Yes I disagree. You can’t compare dollar to dollar. The Pell is a handout. You may or may not get anything back. Paying a military person a salary or giving them an education benefit is not a handout. It is a payment for a service. No comparison.

Here's some free advice: Get over your self. Bragging about your degrees and telling others that their disagreement with you is from their misunderstanding won’t get you anywhere. If you want to make a point, try some tact

[MrNatural]

Another reason for government-supported education, indeed government-mandated education, at least K-12, is to maintain a basic equality of opportunity, however uneven. Without this, the 'consent of the governed' is seriously weakened.

[tdadams]

Here's some advice yourself: Cool down. I never bragged about myself, you're the one who's showing no tact, and I'm still correct. Your point is understood, but the fact that you take offense doesn't change the facts.

[free100]

There are some solid points made in this thread; I used to be uncomfortable with Rush's style, but I thought he showed himself to be honest and mature and had a lot of integrity when he had his medication problems. This call is an excellent example of using common ground to bring everyone closer. Someone mentioned the common misconception that Republicans are rich, I think things like the Pell grant AS AN ALTERNATIVE to traditional government handouts are an excellent rebuttal to that notion. It's what the compassion in compassionate conservatism is all about. The Conservative part is that you're expected to qualify by pursuing education, which specifically enables you to get a job. Once you have the education, no more money except what you earn.

Of course life isn't fair, and just because some people's parents can afford to pay for their school doesn't mean that the govenrment should step in for everyone. But since we live in a world where the government does intervene through social programs, and that's not likely to change, Limbaugh demonstrated that there's room for compassion without compromising the value of integrity to your beliefs and being accountable to yourself.

My conservatism is based on my Christianity, and how Jesus lived His life. He helped those who needed it, and as Rush said, Americans are compassionate and do help those who need it. Of course that doesn't mean that the government should do everything. But the fact that this woman, despite all the influences to the contrary, had her child and is raising her thoughtfully, makes me glad that she's getting some help from the government to become more self-sufficient. It may be controversial to some conservatives (and the above discussion illustrates it) but I do think it's both compassionate and conservative.

[Dr._Joseph_Warren]

You are confusing grants with tax deductions. In case you weren't aware, money spent on education for one's profession is currently tax deductable.

Amazing. Clinton would be proud of your ability to compartmentalize.

Call it a 'grant'. Call it a 'tax deduction'. Call it what you will, it still involves you gaining financially from a government program intended to promote a certain behavior.

In the Pell Grant case, the intention is to encourage and enable people to further their education. A worthy goal that not only helps the individual but helps the country.

In the mortgage tax deduction case, the intention is to encourage and enable people to purchase and own a house.

The fact you don't see what these two programs have in common tells me you consider the mortgage deduction to be an entitlement.

I didn't get a government grant to buy my house.

The manner of financial transfer is irrelevant. Grant or deduction, you still received money as part of a Federal Government program.

But perhaps I would have been able to afford a house a bit sooner if my taxes were lower from not being forced to pay to subsidize others.

Yes, and perhaps this gal could afford to pay her tuition if her taxes were lower from not being forced to subsidize home owners.

[mastequilla]

In the Pell Grant case, the intention is to encourage and enable people to further their education. A worthy goal that not only helps the individual but helps the country.

Did you get that from the Kerry.com web site or did you come up with that yourself? ALL liberal social welfare spending is framed that way - money spent for a worthy goal that will help the country.

The bottom line is that Pell Grants are welfare, they are a grant handed out to someone which will never be repaid, on the HOPE that they will return the benefit to society.

What about all those who took Pell Grant money and either never finished school, never got a better job, or left the work force?

I can accept loans, and I can accept tax credits since they don't involve direct payments on the HOPE that they will benefit society, I don't agree with welfare programs.

I would think that if John Kerry rather than Rush Limbaugh came out in favor of Pell Grants you would have a different view. It is unfortunate that blind idol worship has clouded the vision of many in realizing what Pell Grants are - a liberal program, started by democrats, to transfer confiscated money forcibly taken from hard working americans, to those unwilling to put themselves through college.

How you can defend government wealth-transfer programs on a Conservative web site is beyond me.

[mastequilla]

The manner of financial transfer is irrelevant. Grant or deduction, you still received money as part of a Federal Government program.

There is a huge difference between keeping more of what I earn versus getting a government handout to go to school.

You seem to think that keeping more of the money I earn is equivalent to getting a check from the government for taking some action that the government wants me to take?

In your view I should only be able to keep what the government allows, everything else ought to be used for programs to better society?

Folks, I think we've found a John Kerry mole among us.

[Dr._Joseph_Warren]

There is a huge difference between keeping more of what I earn versus getting a government handout to go to school.

Its amazing how well government propaganda works on people like you. Let me try to break this down in simple terms.

Taxpayer A earns $100,000 on which they can expect to pay $35,000 to Uncle Sam.

Taxpayer B earns $10,000 on which they can expect to pay $3,500 to Uncle Sam.

Taxpayer C earns $100,000 on which they can expect to pay $35,000 to Uncle Sam.

Taxpayer A buys a house and benefits from a mortgage interest tax deduction that puts $3,000 back in his pocket.

Taxpayer B goes to school and gets a Pell Grant the puts $3,000 back in his pocket.

Taxpayer C lives in an apartment and doesn't go to school so gets nothing back in his pocket.

You have been so brainwashed by the government that you think Taxpayer A's $3,000 is different from Taxpayer B's $3,000. From Taxpayer C's point of view, you are both benefiting from Federal programs that he does not benefit from.

You seem to think that keeping more of the money I earn is equivalent to getting a check from the government for taking some action that the government wants me to take?

You are a fool if you don't see that you kept more money BECAUSE you ARE taking an action that the government wants you to take!!! Why should the government tax you less just because you are buying a house???? As far as Taxpayer C is concerned, A&B both benefited from programs that C does not. Both benefits are unfair to Taxpayer C.

In your view I should only be able to keep what the government allows, everything else ought to be used for programs to better society?

That's a lie. Nowhere do I say I am in favor of any of these programs. I'm simply trying to point out how hypocritical you are for bitching about others while essentially do the same thing.

Folks, I think we've found a John Kerry mole among us.

Thanks!! I know I've won the argument when you resort to name calling!

Let me know when you have a better grasp for how our government abuses the tax system.

[mastequilla]

Taxpayer A buys a house and benefits from a mortgage interest tax deduction that puts $3,000 back in his pocket.

You are looking at this from the liberal point of view. Taxpayer A keeps more of what they earn.

Pell Grant recipient gets free cash from the government, generally only qualifying if they are low tax brackets.

See the difference?

It's my money in your example that I'm keeping. In the case of Pell Grants, it is someone elses money that I'm receiving.

[Dr._Joseph_Warren]

You are looking at this from the liberal point of view. Taxpayer A keeps more of what they earn.

Wrong. I am looking at this from a libertarian point of view. The government has no business subsidizing the housing industry.

Shouldn't I get a tax deduction for all the interest I pay on credit cards? Why should you get a tax break on interest paid for a house, but I don't not get a tax break on interest I paid for my television??

You seem to think that you tax break doesn't cost anything. Wrong. Everyone pays more so that a few, like you, can pay less. If they eliminated the housing tax deduction, then Taxpayer C might only pay $28,000 instead of $30,000. The fact that you (and many others) are getting this tax break means that the Taxpayer C's (like me) must pay more to compensate.

This is not fair.

[mastequilla]

Wrong. I am looking at this from a libertarian point of view. The government has no business subsidizing the housing industry.

I agree with you, I'm a proponent of the fair tax (e.g. national sales tax).

However, you are still missing the point. A government grant which gives a direct check to someone is much different than a tax credit, which allows people to keep more of what they earn.

One doesn't have to earn anything to qualify for a Pell Grant, and in fact, the more you earn, the less likely you are to get it.

You seem to think that you tax break doesn't cost anything. Wrong. Everyone pays more so that a few, like you, can pay less. If they eliminated the housing tax deduction, then Taxpayer C might only pay $28,000 instead of $30,000. The fact that you (and many others) are getting this tax break means that the Taxpayer C's (like me) must pay more to compensate

Only if we continue to fund programs that you support such as the Pell Grant. If we cut off funding for the social welfare agenda that you embrace, we could eliminate tax breaks without requiring others to make up the difference.

[Dianna]

So you can now be a "rock-ribbed" conseravative even if you are pro-choice, advocate gay marriage, receive governemnt grants and have a duaghter outside of wedlock? Cool!!

Do you LIKE to lose elections? We are talking about a young woman. Today, she is going to vote republican. If she continues to be engaged in the issues, she will begin examining her beliefs. Minds do not change overnight. All this while she is voting the GOP ticket.

While always inclined to be somewhat conservative, I had many competing beliefs. Over time, as I listened and read, learned about ideas and common truths behind many conservative positions, I became MUCH more conservative. It's a process.