Posted on 06/14/2004 2:07:09 PM PDT by avg_freeper
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy on Monday awarded Chicago-based Boeing Co. a multibillion dollar deal to design a replacement for the Navy's fleet of submarine-hunting P-3 aircraft, congressional sources said.
(Excerpt) Read more at money.cnn.com ...
It is my understanding that, on a jet/turbofan, once the burst is recognized, full power should be selected, of course, but also, the angle of attack should be brought to that providing maximum lift ASAP. All of the rreports I've seen of microburst-related mishaps indicated that the bird could have been saved had the pilots reacted by assuming a high-lift atttitude. That is, throttles to the wall and bring the stick to shaker. Most did not do #2, and paid for it. If the wings aren't getting lift because the relative wind is against them, all the power in the world will not save you.
Whatever, the point is that both jetliners and turboprops have been operating in microburst/LLWS environments for many years. Yes, we've lost some, but proper training and procedures have cut that rate way down.
Your suggestion regarding the spoilers down low, with the engines spooled, sounds workable if it doesn't overstress the spoilers or the engine mounts. That's the only concern I can see.
One of the original complaints from purists about jets was the spool-up time, especially for those on carriers. Seems to me it was worked out, as was that on airliner-sized jets.
The only two major military prop jobs I can think of offhand are the P-3 and the C-130. All the rest are jets of one brand or another.
With MMA, the P-3 will be replaced, leaving the Herk, and I'm sure someone's working on that one as we speak.
I'm sorry that some here equate the replacement of these birds with disloyalty or dislike of them. Nothing of the kind is intended; both the P-3, and later the Herk, like so many of their predecessors, will always hold a place of honor in the hearts of those who crewed them over the decades. Just because something newer and more advanced replaces a trusted steed does NOT mean that the old girls were BAD or hated. It just means that, like so many other weapons systems (and people, for that matter), they reached retirement age, and were honorably and gratefully discharged, with full salutes.
Maybe their prototype aircraft can finally locate
that Soviet sub that's been reported in Lake Michigan for years.
Thanks, this has been quite interesting. I was hoping the 737 would be as good or better down on the deck in case they had to evade weather or maybe say a merchantman that turned out to be unfriendly where the plane had to "get the hell outta Dodge" right now. I gather that the 737 will do the job.
No, I would use flaps. I want more lift, not less, and I don't want to be pitched up hanging on the engines either. Flaps will keep me under 5 units of alpha, and I can go as slow as I want.
Idle on my big baby is less than 12%, but I still have to ride the brakes to keep from rolling most of the time.
If anyone knows where the RF/microwave/radar systems are being developed, let me know. I need a change from missiles.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but don't slight power in this situation. Alpha means nothing if you cant get air over the wing. In a micro-burst, you do not want to just pull to the shaker, because if you are slow, you are going to drag the tail and die anyway. Assuming full flaps (30deg)and at least 85% power, most anything should be able to GRADUALLY climb away without losing airspeed.
In that situation, it is really hard to remember to NOT just yank the yoke, but you must remember where your tail is in relation to the ground when you rotate and act accordingly.
I've experienced it mildly, back in my Cessna and Piper days, but then, I always had one hand on the yoke and one on the go-lever. Am I correct in assuming that on an airliner this is not always the case? It certainly wasn't on a P-3.
You are asking me? Dude, I just babysit the computer. I'm on auto-approach and auto-throttle all the way down the chute where I take over at the threshold... if I FEEL like it. When I hit the ground, I'll flip the spoilers and reversers while the computer deals with the brakes.
If I encounter a micro-burst, the computer will take care of it and let me in on it later in 9 out of 10 cases. But then, I am spoiled. Were I in a 727 through early 747s I would never take my hand from the throttle on approach if I had the airplane.
What airshow was that. Were a pilot was doing a flyby and wanted to do a max G pull-up. And the computer said NO! And flew them into a treeline?
True I'd be casting an evil eye to any newcomer. But If it was truly a better aircraft for the mission. I'd be patting the P-3 on the nose and saying " you did good old gal"
But it's not. This MMA is not. It will be a less capable more dangers airframe for this job. Unless you plan to start chasing subs at 30,000 ft.
This thing will be a boondoggle.
Airliners live up at 30-40k ft not down at 200 ft. This thing has two huge funnels hanging under it. Lets see how reliable they are fed a heavy diet of salt. Airlines have no data in this area. They don't live down there.
Your worried about black boxes and flush toilets. ( And whose going clean it )
Black boxes can be put in any airframe Do you really want in flight refueling ( think about it) As far as I know no 737 has been built with it. P-3's have. At the end of the 70's ( at Pax. I believe ) one was converted when there were looking into what to do next.
And this is just a few things. I can see a whole lot more problems with out even trying.
If a recall S-3's ae no longer use for ASW. Is that right?
Way off here, bud.
If I had to be down at 200 ft, I would rather be in a 737 than in a fighter jet. Airliners are all-weather craft. Engines are tested to the point of ridiculous stresses, such as having salt water sprayed directly into the compressor stages throughout the engine's power curve. There is so much data available in this area, it approaches overkill. Airlines are expected to perform at every altitude, every weather, every time, or people die. 200ft in a 737 is a piece of cake. Two big turbofans, large-supercritical wings with winglet tips, multi-redundant digital flight controls; no problem.
These missions will be flown by computer, following a GPS route, with TFR maintaining altitude throughout. There is no potential 'boondoggle' here, these guys currently flying the P-3 are about to get a lot more deadly and efficient.
You know, in my lifetime, I cannot recall one weapons system that SOMEONE didn't claim to be a "boondoggle". That includes almost the entire "Teen" series of fighters, the B-2, B-1, M1-A1 Abrams, Bradley FV, the F-22, and a host of others. Some indeed experienced some growing pains as bugs were worked out, but they all eventually were perfected and now it's difficult to imagine life without them. Were their predecessors good as well? Sure, for their times. We cannot simply stay in one place forever, though. I've seen the newer designs for the gear on the MMA, andf it will be worlds ahead of that of a modern P-3, and lightyears from the old II's and II.5's. Eventually, the operators of those had to admit that the Update III version was superior. The MMA suite will make the III's look like Atari.
Same as a bug smasher. I suppose speed breaks would be more appropriate that a spoiler (If you needed to get rid of drag fast and climb).
BTW, how long would does a GE-90 (and those similar commie motors) take to spool up to 85%? I gather that spool up time isn't so much an issue in a microburst due to excess thrust.
The stick, as I was taught, was to be brought to the POINT of "shaker" and relaxed just under it, while the engines are brought to full power. You don't FLY the bird in shaker, you just use it as an indicator of max lift (which is immediately pre-stall).
Man, I don't like that idea. But I'm not going to argue with Navy flight ops. They know what they are doing.
But, in Cessna world, pitch to an AOA (actually attitude, and AOA settle in). Anything slower than Vx isn't going up as fast.
We're the OTHER Wings Of Gold...
I'm a Riddle (Prescott) grad from '95. Not AS but AE, I had a CFII before enrolling, and couldn't afford AS lab fees.. What campus?
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