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To: rmlew

Well, it seems like you folks can't get one straight story here. Some say France was relatively tolerant, others say it was a "lesser of two evils" choice.

Frankly, I like to let the numbers speak for themselves.

Quite simply, the Jewish population of France has trebled in 60 years, while the country has seen a 15% population uptick as a whole, and most (over half) of the growth of the Jewish population is post-1960.

THEREFORE, it seems clear to me that up until the present, France has been seen as a desirable locale for Jews to relocate to. If that is so, its hard to blame the long term residents there, the French, for any sudden uptick of anti-semitism they perceive themselves to be on the receiving end of.

Far more likely that the blame should rest with the N. African Arabs, with whom the French are also having problems.

So why are you guys all yapping about the French as if it is their fault? Certainly you don't believe Algerians become French by moving to Marsielles? Or that the French are out advertising their country as a hot destination for Arab emigration?

This is like noticing Mexican anti-semitism in the US, and then blaming ordinary Americans for being part of an anti-semitic country because Mexicans live here, when ordinary Americans have been welcoming to Jews but never asked the Mexicans to invade.


95 posted on 06/13/2004 10:06:54 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Well, it seems like you folks can't get one straight story here. Some say France was relatively tolerant, others say it was a "lesser of two evils" choice.
Notice the word "relatively." There were some very anti-Semitic elements in France. However, compared to Russia, it was a haven.

Quite simply, the Jewish population of France has trebled in 60 years, while the country has seen a 15% population uptick as a whole, and most (over half) of the growth of the Jewish population is post-1960.
THEREFORE, it seems clear to me that up until the present, France has been seen as a desirable locale for Jews to relocate to. If that is so, its hard to blame the long term residents there, the French, for any sudden uptick of anti-semitism they perceive themselves to be on the receiving end of.

Postwar France was quite tolerant of Jews. Hatred of the Vichy regime saw to that. That does not mean that there were no open anti-Semites or that this did not grow with Frances defection tothe anti-Israel camp in 1967.
Many Algerian and Morrocan Jews did move to France. (Although far more moved to Israel.) The current violence is almost totally the work of Arabs. However, as anti-Zionism becomes anti-Semitism and the French internalize premature Dhimmitude, the culture becomes hostile to Jews.

96 posted on 06/13/2004 10:15:29 PM PDT by rmlew (Peaceniks and isolationists are objectively pro-Terrorist)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Frankly, I like to let the numbers speak for themselves.

Fine. After Israel was formed, the Arabs kicked out over one million Jews from their lands in 1948, 70,000 went to France, mostly because of existing Separdic-Jewish centers, pushing the population up to 250,000 by 1950. As the French influence in North Africa waned, waves of French speaking Jews, subjects if the formerly French speaking French outposts there, ran to France to avoid the Muslims. After the 6 day war in Israel, another 16,000 Moroccan and Tunisian Jews ran to their Sephardic Jewish brethren. By 1968, Sephardic Jews were the majority of the Jewish population in France, immigrating largely and only because of war in their own homelands and because of the existing Sephardic Jewish community in France.

The "Flocking" of Jews to your idea of an egalitarian France is an interesting fantasy. The only reason for the rapid statistical growth of the Jewish population in France is not because Jews from any other place found it necessarily appealing, but rather it was a choice of last resort. They had the same language and similar cultural values and found shelter from conflict there. That is primarily why after those waves, we have seen no more "flocking" since the 1980's. This had nothing whatsoever to do with French Arab Jew hatred.

THEREFORE, it seems clear to me that up until the present, France has been seen as a desirable locale for Jews to relocate to

ERGO it seems to me that French Jews are planning to leave in the many thousands; almost as quickly as they came. As, there is a large Sephardic population in Israel, there are already a couple of thousand Jewish emmigre's from France to Israel in this year alone. There is a planning commission in Israel already being set up to prepare for large waves of French Jews in the next couple of years in the 10's of thousands or more.

So why are we yapping about the French as if it is their fault? We blame the French because for more the first time in less than a century, Jews are attacked and afraid for their lives in France. You say it is only the Muslims? I say that the French turn a blind eye to it for as long as they can. I say the French Judges do nothing to the perpetrators of the attacks. I say that many thousands of Jews there are leaving, planning, or have already left. I also so it because I know many expatriate French Jews personally and have the "gory details"

The Mexicans aren't attacking Jews in universities, theaters, and on the streets of Los Angeles in mobs. They aren't burning synagogues, or have Mexican clergymen teaching that Jews are the sons of pigs and monkeys in Mexican class rooms.

When they start doing that, then you can make a valid comparison. Until then, yes- I blame the French too.

105 posted on 06/13/2004 11:16:49 PM PDT by Nachum
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

>>This is like noticing Mexican anti-semitism in the US

Where did you get this? Are there lots of Mexican guys stabbing Jewish school children in LA or something? If so do you have a source?


117 posted on 06/14/2004 11:15:11 AM PDT by Betis70
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