For the Germans, the War's Ambiguities Persist (WHY the Germans are insisting they're WW II victims)

The International Herald Tribune ^ | June 7, 2004 | John Vinocur

[STFrancis]

I am not trying to let anyone of the hook here. The statements were that Germans of that time period were victims of the Nazi's as well. Which in my opinion is correct.

If memory serves me right there were the same numbers of Germans executed in concentration camps as jews (Keep in mind memory is spotty here. I know the figure was in the multi-millions).

Now, remember that is NOT to say Germany did not bring a LOT of this onto themselves....

[lainde]

bttt

[Eternal_Bear]

Then, way back in the 1840s the Germans purged all their Jeffersonian Democrats! Most moved to the United States just in time for the American Civil War.

Yup, we lynched a whole passel of "liberal" germans during the Civil War down here in Texas.

[muawiyah]

Hmmmm. Are you saying Texans lynched POWs during the Civil War? Or, are you saying that gangs of armed thugs went around to Texas Hill Country farms and ranches murdering women and children?

Neither one would surprise me, but who would want to admit to it!

[muawiyah]

There were several different kinds of murders for which the Nazis were responsible. First there are the deaths of innocent people brought about by acts of war. Then there are the deaths of prisoners, whether military or civilian.

Within each broad category there are "details" and "subdivisions".

Rather than organizing the dead according to style of murder, it's probably best to tally the dead up by national and religious groups. Russians died in the millions. Then there were Jews of many nationalities. They, too, died in the millions. There were Polish people, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and they died in the millions. Even Germans died in the millions toward the end of the war.

Americans died in the hundreds of thousands, as did folks from the United Kingdom and it's dependencies, etc. Specialists can get into what went on in the Far East.

There are people who wish to believe this did not happen. Unfortunately, WWII did happen and it still has consequences.

[muawiyah]

You have to detail out the picture of the French regarding who and why they became involved in the American Revolution.

Not quite sure "squeezing" is applicable.

For instance, there was the Noilles family who LOST the French North American fur trade when the UK took over Canada at the conclusion of the French & Indian War.

One of the son in laws, Lafayette, came back and took away a good part of that fur trade from the UK. He also recovered, in full, the deer hide trade!

The King of France had obtained a substantial chunk of his income from French North America before that war. He'd also made money from the furniture business, but his primary source of aged and pre-cut hardwood had also been lost to the UK.

A free and independent America was definitely in the commercial interest of the French.

[rrrod]

IMHO the Germany of today is edging its way back to facism but instead of a "hitler" it will be the all powerful "state" of socialism...seems the German mindset loves cvontrol over everything

[Eternal_Bear]

They lynched German Union loyalists. It is well documented. As far as I know, only men. Germans were also singled out in Missouri and even Kansas as Quantrell wiped out the German colony in his raid on Lawrence Kansas. However, some Germans did serve in the CSA.

As a side note, there was an ulterior motive in German immigration during the eraly 1840's to Texas. The Duke of Saxe-Weimar recently admitted that it was hoped that German immigration would turn Texas into a Germanic state. He brought documents outlining this plan. That was all foiled when Texas joined the Union in 1845.

[STFrancis]

I don't really get what that had to do with anything I was talking about but there is nothing wrong with your statement. What's your point?

[ellery]

Absolutely, I agree that any Germans who were on the run from the Nazis or thrown into concentration camps were victims. I'm talking about the Germans who fought for/supported Hitler, though -- were they victims? There's a good argument either way, of course -- as you pointed out, they were brainwashed. But on the other hand, many other people who have lived under regimes that tried to brainwash them have taken up arms against their regime. Most Germans didn't do that. I have to wonder, why not?

[STFrancis]

Well, I think the answer to that is two fold. And I am going to speak in VERY general simplified terms and you can rip this up with 'ifs' 'buts' etc..

A.) If you look at Hitlers rise to power he was a brilliant speaker and had an unbelievable propaganda machine lead by Goebbels. Keep in mind that you didn't have a second way of getting information. He said what people wanted to hear and his mass gatherings had from what I am told a unbelievable energy. People got inspired and so caught up in the ideology that they simply wouldn't believe some of the horrible things that were said. I know for a fact several soldiers that thought the Americans were making the concentration camps up or were fooled by the Russians etc. (when shown pictures in prison camps). It took a little while for a lot of them of what actually happened. Everyone knew about the KZ's but I don't think people themselves could actually comprehend what went on in them (And I am obviously am NOT talking about SS guards, etc.). B.) The country was at a time of war in 1939. Laws were stricter and you wouldn't dare to betray your country at the time of need (And remember Hitler justified the wars to the German people in a similiar way Bush did the Iraq war to America. With the difference that Bush did actually do the right thing vs. Hitler selling the country a sham). The regular soldier most times just cared about one thing which was "Live another day". Having read quite a bit of personal war accounts you will be surprised how plain numb people were after months of fighting. This keep in mind went on for 5-6 years for soldiers that fought the entire war.

When I talk about Germans being victims I talk about a general sense of buying into Hitler's tyranny as well as the millions of people that got displaced, killed, maimed etc. during and after the war. A friend of mines family was kicked out of Sudetendeutschland even though his family had lived there for over a hundred years. The lost everything they owned and more. Now, this happened to millions of people on ALL sides which I all call victims of war. What about the many women that were systematically raped by the Russians? (And I am not going into the justification part of it etc.)

Victims were on ALL sides which is the way war usually happens and the only point I was trying to make.

[ellery]

Victims were on ALL sides which is the way war usually happens and the only point I was trying to make.

Thanks for your thoughtful response; I don't disagree. I'm just worried that this trend toward Germans defining themselves as a whole as victims too closely paralleled the run-up to WWII, where Hitler created the same feeling of victimhood. The powers that be in the EU keep talking about "the end of history," and how conflict and tyranny in Europe have become impossible...but I think they're being dangerously naiive.

The fact is that it's only been a few generations since Germany started two world wars (and Prussia was an aggressor before that). Now, the bureaucratic wranglings in the EU by France and Germany sometimes seem to be geared toward their domination of Europe by political rather than military means. And this attempt at political domination is accompanied by some of the same rhetoric that was used to justify Germany's invasions in the run-up to WWII. It's unsettling, to say the least.

[STFrancis]

Well, I understand how you came to your conclusion however I view it a little different. After the war Germany was changed in a degree that does not allow for expansionism if I might call it that.

For one, the German Constitution does not allow for it (No German Soldier is allowed to set foot in another country during times of war.) and only recently amended to allow for deployments supporting NATO (Which is why Germany has a significant amount of troops in Afghanistan).

The other point is that from the time you are in elementary school over there it is drilled into the heads of students that Germany is bad, being german is bad -because of WWII, being proud of once nation is not good and leads to fascism. Unbelievably to me they have even done away with the German Nation anthem before a internation soccer match and substituted with some stupid song that was sung in english. Go figure...

Pacifism rules the land. That was one of the reasons why Schroeder got overwhelming support that won him the election and so many people dislike Reagan and Bush. Both are seen as people that don't shy away from war which is seen as less then a last resort. In other words, from a war perspective they have swung WAY in the other direction.

You are right that they are being dangerously naiive in thinking tryanny has come to an end. They simply can not IMAGINE that this could happen. However as a realist it's not inconceivable.

I don't see the political domination that you speak of since I don't think Schroeder is worth a penny. In my opinion he is a lackey of Chiraq's and does whatever makes the French happy. The Germans as a people are very much against the current goverment and the last elections prove that beyond a doubt. The ruling party has been defeated soundly in every single election since Schroeder got reelected.

What worries me is the same tendency I am seeing in the American press to worship at the altar of Michael Moore and to look to him as the man that defines what the U.S. is. Because believe it or not Michael Moore, because of him being American, he is viewed as the definate source of what America is like. Now, THAT scares me...

Because the hard core Islamic forces want all of us dead. As long as we don't subscribe to their kind of justice.