Posted on 06/04/2004 4:48:14 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
ROME (AP) -
President Bush got a sharp dose of Europe's opposition to his Iraq policy Friday, quietly in the halls of the Vatican from Pope John Paul II and loudly in the streets of Rome from thousands of demonstrators.
The ailing pontiff complained about recent "deplorable events," an apparent reference to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops. In the absence of a commitment to shared human values, "neither war nor terrorism will ever be overcome," he said, struggling to speak.
However, the pope welcomed the recent establishment of an interim government and called for a speedy transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqis.
Not far from the Vatican walls, tens of thousands of protesters took to the streets to demonstrate through central Rome, many with signs demanding Italy withdraw its troops from Iraq. A score of demonstrators hurling stones clashed with police during the march. Others threw firecrackers and set a trash can on fire.
Bush had dinner with a top ally on Iraq, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. On Saturday, the president heads to Paris to meet with one of his sharpest war critics, French President Jacques Chirac.
Despite Berlusconi's backing, and his decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq, polls show that a majority of Italians oppose the U.S.-led war and occupation of Iraq, a sentiment common throughout western Europe.
Bush is on a three-day trip to Italy and France to help commemorate the June 1944 liberation of Rome and the allied D-Day invasion of Normandy. He was also using the trip - and an international economic summit next week in Sea Island, Ga. - to try to build more support among leading nations for a new U.N. resolution to deal with post-occupation Iraq.
But the announcement in Baghdad that five U.S. soldiers were killed and five wounded on Friday when their vehicles were attacked in east Baghdad served as a reminder that Iraq remained an extremely dangerous place.
Seated next to the pope, Bush promised his nation would work for "human liberty and human dignity," without making any reference to Iraq. He presented the pontiff with the presidential medal of freedom, America's highest civilian award, calling him "a devoted servant of God."
The president and his wife Laura laid a green wreath at the Ardeatine Cave Memorial, where Nazi occupiers massacred 335 Italian citizens in 1944. Bush, alone, approached the wreath, straightened its blue ribbon and bowed his head as a bugler played.
At the Vatican, Bush sat impassively as the 84-year-old pope, seated in front of a microphone, read his statement in English in a voice that was audible, but not easily understood. His hands trembled from Parkinson's disease.
"Mr. President, your visit to Rome takes place at a moment of great concern for the continuing situation of grave unrest in the Middle East, both in Iraq and in the Holy Land," the pope said.
"In the past few weeks, other deplorable events have come to light which have troubled the civic and religious conscience of all."
Although the remarks appeared directed at abuses of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, they could also be taken to include other atrocities such as the kidnapping of foreign civilians in Iraq by Islamic militants and the beheading of an American contractor.
The pope did not elaborate. Neither would papal spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls, although he did not dispute characterizations that the comments referred primarily to abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.
The spokesman said that while the pope had reiterated the Vatican's long-standing opposition to the war, he made plain he was ready to move forward.
Later, Navarro-Valls issued a brief statement summing up Bush's visit to the Vatican. "There were some points of agreement, especially regarding the process of normalization of Iraq," he said.
Navarro-Valls also spoke about the U.S. humanitarian role around the world, particularly in Africa, and, as the pope himself had stated, the promotion of moral values in American society.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said, "We appreciate the Holy Father's words of support for the interim government and for the transfer of sovereignty."
Regarding the pope's apparent reference to Abu Ghraib, McClellan said, "I'm sure the Holy Father is concerned about the abuses. The president is as well. That's why we are acting, taking a systemic look at the prison system and holding those responsible who committed those atrocities."
Friday's was Bush's third meeting with the pope since he became president.
Bush has aggressively courted Roman Catholic voters - a bloc making up about a quarter of the electorate that split evenly between Bush and Democrat Al Gore in 2000.
Thanking Bush for the medal of freedom award, the pontiff said: "God bless America."
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The pope is simply very wrong on this issue.
My thoughts exactly though you expressed them far better.
He didn't do that. Read the text, don't listen to the media spin.
THAT was wonderful to hear!
You're brave, do you know that? I can just hear the rumbling, grumbling, and growling of the "Catholic bashers" coming toward you? There are so few of those on here like you, who can be rational! I can't believe all this vitriol on here against Catholics and our leader! They pounce on every blessed article the media can dish out on how the Pope scolded Bush; and they fall for it like a ton of bricks, and believe every word.
Normally, many of them wouldn't believe half of what the liberal US or world media has to say. But an article comes up like that, and a switch goes off somewhere, and the bashing of the church, and the Pope is full-swing! I realize that there are issues people have, but must they paint the whole church with a tar-brush?
You don't even hear a thing about how the Pope is against abortion or homosexual behavior, or other social issues. No, all I hear is the constant complaining of how he has no moral authority because of the bad eggs in the priesthood.
Why, just why, can't we hear of good things the people of the church do, and by extension, the Pope? Yeah, maybe he's against war; but he's also against terrorism, and he was also against the way the Nazis and the Communists treated people!
He complimented us in this speech. Maybe there was a mild rebuke in there about the war; but in general, he seemed to be praising the efforts of the soldiers in WW11 and up till the present conflict in Iraq.
I realize us Catholics need to work on cleaning out our own rooms, and disciplining those that were wrong. However, didn't the Lord say something about "Removing the log out of our own eye, before trying to take the mote out of another's eye"?
This can happen in any organization, any profession. It could even happen in 'their' churches! I don't care how 'conservative' they think they are, or how 'conservative' they think their churches are. They have to remember that even the Puritans had 'rascals' among them! Maybe they need to be reminded what happened in Salem, Massachusettes 300 years ago? Those people were as 'conservative' as they come!
Do they remember what the Lord had to say to the Pharisees? Yeah, they were pretty 'conservative' too! And a number of them, as I recall, put him to death, because they couldn't stand to hear the truth about their own behavior.
Maybe they (Catholic bashers, not honest critics) should learn about a little word called 'respect'. They have fellow "Freepers" on here, who although mad about SOME of our leaders, still admire and support many others, including our Pope.
And we all together, will straighten our own church up; as we have done for 2000 years! Over and over if necessary, because we are all human, and are capable of sin! Other churches have them too; and these people need to tend their own 'houses' and see if they need some cleaning! Surely they have humans in there too, humans that sin?
I think her pamphlet denouncing the barbarian hordes overtaking her continent was pretty compelling, though I think she took a few too many undeserved potshots at Berlusconi and his leadership. Though her commentary on the nomenclature they established to find a name for their party; "Forza Italia" is a kind of stupid, simplistic name for a governing political party, was dead-on.
I appreciate the fact that she's intellectually honest enough to condemn these militant leftists who try to discount the value of human life, so long as it is life that is unborn and not helpful to their goal of subjugating society to their pernicious ideology.
Whether his voice is expressed in the form of an apostolic letter to the faithful, or an encyclical directed toward diocesan spread throughout the world, or simply speaking to a public figure in a private conversation, I don't think it really makes much of a difference to the general public.
The important thing is that it is Pope John Paul II, not that the words were delivered within a particular context.
Personally, I think Pres. Bush has done the right thing in meeting with him, even if he draws a lot flack in the process of doing so.
I sure am glad that the pope also decried the 100's of thousands massacred under Sadam
The Nick Berg killing
The 4 contractors burned and mutilated in Fallujah
All the roadside bombings and US servicemen killed by terroists
The POPE IS ABOUT TO MAKE ME HURL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My source: Several Catholics I've talked to believe it! How much more accurate can you get?! I didn't say the Pope was sinless or that he thinks he sinless. Please read posts carefully before commenting...have a blessed day!
Hearsay is just that. Some people believe the moon landings were faked. Read what you write before you post it.
I suspect more than a few of those guards were taught by Jesuits. But the bottom line is the Church won & the Reds lost.
This pope treats America like a red-headed step child. We got rid of a brutal dictator, we brought freedom to 25 million Iraqis at the cost of 700 hundred American lives and all he can do is feel sorry from some murdering terrorist who had ladies panties put on his head."
Well put.
Far from being a part of the solution, the Pope is part of the problem.
In about 15 years when the Muslim horde has wreaked havoc upon ALL of Europe there'll be a deafening cachophony -- the day after Islam sets up shop right IN the Vatican.
this is a complete lie
Sword of St. Peter chopping off Malchus' ear:
Did you know that the Pope's Swiss Guards and his personal bodyguards are trained by IDF commandos of Israel and that they carry Uzzi's and other weapons right next to the Pope when he is in public?
Agree, non-Catholics don't get the
distinctions. Point is, Catholics
who heard him condemn us for the
Iraq War realize he claimed no
infallibility; he can be mistaken.
Both Catholics/non-Catholics see/
hear an elderly, sickly, nearly
helpless man expressing views on
who-knows-what faulty impressions
of events in Iraq. The American
people see/hear the Media bash &
bash Bush with his criticisms. So
what else is new from THEM?
I believe we have enough common
sense not to let it rock us.
There was handwringing that the
Pope's words will hurt politically
& Bush should've stayed away.
I, too, disagree, for reasons said in my earlier post(#61), & here
Karol Wojtyla may have bravely resisted the Nazis and Communists in his native land, but I don't think he fully grasps the threat that extreme Islam poses to both Western civilization and to the continued survival of Christianity itself.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030219_migliore-security-council_en.html
INTERVENTION OF H.E. MSGR. CELESTINO MIGLIORE
AT THE MEETING IN THE CHAMBER OF THE
SECURITY COUNCIL OF THE UNITED NATIONS
ON THE IRAQI ISSUE
Wednesday, 19 February 2003
....
The Holy See is closely following the developments on the
ground and expresses its support for the efforts of the
international community towards resolving the crisis within
the sphere of the international legality. For this purpose
and with this in mind, His Holiness Pope John Paul II has
recently sent a Special Envoy to Baghdad, who met with
President Saddam Hussein and delivered him A MESSAGE FROM THE POPE STRESSING, INTER ALIA, THE NEED FOR CONCRETE COMMITMENTS IN FAITHFUL ADHERENCE TO THE RELEVANT RESOLUTIONS OF THE UNITED NATIONS.
A similar message has also been conveyed to Mr. Tarek Aziz,
Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister,
who visited the Pope on 14 February last.
You don't want to wrangle with those hundred fierce Swiss guardsmen.
Their uniforms may induce spasms of uncontrollable laughter, but that doesn't mean they won't go medieval on your heinie.
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