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Pope Denounces Events in Iraq to Bush
The Las Vegas Sun ^ | June 04, 2004 at 15:11:46 PDT | TOM RAUM

Posted on 06/04/2004 4:48:14 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach

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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I was extremely disappointed to hear the pope had made those comments. Where's the concern regarding atrocities committed by Sadam Hussein against his own people and the joy about the opportunity for the Iraqi people to live in freedom?

The pope is simply very wrong on this issue.

121 posted on 06/04/2004 10:47:24 PM PDT by TOUGH STOUGH ( A vote for George Bush is a principled vote!)
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To: Geist Krieger

My thoughts exactly though you expressed them far better.


122 posted on 06/04/2004 10:50:05 PM PDT by TOUGH STOUGH ( A vote for George Bush is a principled vote!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks for posting!

It brought tears to my eyes to hear his holiness say, "God bless America." Do people think he says that as a figure of speech, as if someone sneezed?

Isn't he magnificent? Carrying on through his physical ills. Proving that life has value at all times, no matter how difficult it becomes. What an example to emulate!
123 posted on 06/04/2004 10:50:58 PM PDT by stop_fascism
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To: Jorge

He didn't do that. Read the text, don't listen to the media spin.


124 posted on 06/04/2004 10:59:33 PM PDT by stop_fascism
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To: stop_fascism
"It brought tears to my eyes to hear his holiness say, "God bless America."

THAT was wonderful to hear!

125 posted on 06/04/2004 11:03:12 PM PDT by TOUGH STOUGH ( A vote for George Bush is a principled vote!)
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To: stop_fascism

You're brave, do you know that? I can just hear the rumbling, grumbling, and growling of the "Catholic bashers" coming toward you? There are so few of those on here like you, who can be rational! I can't believe all this vitriol on here against Catholics and our leader! They pounce on every blessed article the media can dish out on how the Pope scolded Bush; and they fall for it like a ton of bricks, and believe every word.

Normally, many of them wouldn't believe half of what the liberal US or world media has to say. But an article comes up like that, and a switch goes off somewhere, and the bashing of the church, and the Pope is full-swing! I realize that there are issues people have, but must they paint the whole church with a tar-brush?

You don't even hear a thing about how the Pope is against abortion or homosexual behavior, or other social issues. No, all I hear is the constant complaining of how he has no moral authority because of the bad eggs in the priesthood.

Why, just why, can't we hear of good things the people of the church do, and by extension, the Pope? Yeah, maybe he's against war; but he's also against terrorism, and he was also against the way the Nazis and the Communists treated people!

He complimented us in this speech. Maybe there was a mild rebuke in there about the war; but in general, he seemed to be praising the efforts of the soldiers in WW11 and up till the present conflict in Iraq.

I realize us Catholics need to work on cleaning out our own rooms, and disciplining those that were wrong. However, didn't the Lord say something about "Removing the log out of our own eye, before trying to take the mote out of another's eye"?

This can happen in any organization, any profession. It could even happen in 'their' churches! I don't care how 'conservative' they think they are, or how 'conservative' they think their churches are. They have to remember that even the Puritans had 'rascals' among them! Maybe they need to be reminded what happened in Salem, Massachusettes 300 years ago? Those people were as 'conservative' as they come!

Do they remember what the Lord had to say to the Pharisees? Yeah, they were pretty 'conservative' too! And a number of them, as I recall, put him to death, because they couldn't stand to hear the truth about their own behavior.

Maybe they (Catholic bashers, not honest critics) should learn about a little word called 'respect'. They have fellow "Freepers" on here, who although mad about SOME of our leaders, still admire and support many others, including our Pope.

And we all together, will straighten our own church up; as we have done for 2000 years! Over and over if necessary, because we are all human, and are capable of sin! Other churches have them too; and these people need to tend their own 'houses' and see if they need some cleaning! Surely they have humans in there too, humans that sin?


126 posted on 06/05/2004 1:30:56 AM PDT by dsutah
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To: Helms
I didn't think Falacci was very Catholic, being a socialist and all, but I guess I could be wrong.

I think her pamphlet denouncing the barbarian hordes overtaking her continent was pretty compelling, though I think she took a few too many undeserved potshots at Berlusconi and his leadership. Though her commentary on the nomenclature they established to find a name for their party; "Forza Italia" is a kind of stupid, simplistic name for a governing political party, was dead-on.

I appreciate the fact that she's intellectually honest enough to condemn these militant leftists who try to discount the value of human life, so long as it is life that is unborn and not helpful to their goal of subjugating society to their pernicious ideology.

127 posted on 06/05/2004 2:09:30 AM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid ( "Have you no morals, man?" "No. No. I can't afford dem guv'ner.")
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To: txrangerette
I don't think most people-with the exception of traditional Roman Catholics-make a distinction between the pontiff speaking informally and formally.

Whether his voice is expressed in the form of an apostolic letter to the faithful, or an encyclical directed toward diocesan spread throughout the world, or simply speaking to a public figure in a private conversation, I don't think it really makes much of a difference to the general public.

The important thing is that it is Pope John Paul II, not that the words were delivered within a particular context.

Personally, I think Pres. Bush has done the right thing in meeting with him, even if he draws a lot flack in the process of doing so.

128 posted on 06/05/2004 2:18:25 AM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid ( "Have you no morals, man?" "No. No. I can't afford dem guv'ner.")
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To: oceanview
"I am really focused on the WH political team failing, as they always to, to anticipate the spin coming from this. The sheeple are being saturated with this -....."


This man called a "pope" interjected himself into this war against terrorists killers from its beginning. I do not recall him having problems with Saddam's butchering and paying the PLO families $25,000 for their homicidal children.

Maybe "GOD" is in control and finds it necessary to send a message to those that believe the "pope" is infallible.
129 posted on 06/05/2004 2:28:59 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks for you post

I sure am glad that the pope also decried the 100's of thousands massacred under Sadam

The Nick Berg killing

The 4 contractors burned and mutilated in Fallujah

All the roadside bombings and US servicemen killed by terroists

The POPE IS ABOUT TO MAKE ME HURL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

130 posted on 06/05/2004 3:41:51 AM PDT by democrats_nightmare
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To: A.A. Cunningham

My source: Several Catholics I've talked to believe it! How much more accurate can you get?! I didn't say the Pope was sinless or that he thinks he sinless. Please read posts carefully before commenting...have a blessed day!


131 posted on 06/05/2004 4:45:35 AM PDT by PatriotBill
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To: PatriotBill

Hearsay is just that. Some people believe the moon landings were faked. Read what you write before you post it.


132 posted on 06/05/2004 6:00:48 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: ijcr
I did not know Check point Charlie was manned by Jesuits,or that the German East-West border was patrolled by Carmelite nuns armed to the teeth with 12" straight edges.

I suspect more than a few of those guards were taught by Jesuits. But the bottom line is the Church won & the Reds lost.

133 posted on 06/05/2004 7:47:42 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: DestroytheDemocrats
"We started taking care of the Iraqi abuse problem a hell of a lot sooner than the Church took care of the child abuse problem...

This pope treats America like a red-headed step child. We got rid of a brutal dictator, we brought freedom to 25 million Iraqis at the cost of 700 hundred American lives and all he can do is feel sorry from some murdering terrorist who had ladies panties put on his head."

Well put.

Far from being a part of the solution, the Pope is part of the problem.

In about 15 years when the Muslim horde has wreaked havoc upon ALL of Europe there'll be a deafening cachophony -- the day after Islam sets up shop right IN the Vatican.

134 posted on 06/05/2004 8:37:35 AM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: All

this is a complete lie


135 posted on 06/05/2004 8:38:56 AM PDT by The Wizard (Democrats: enemies of America)
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To: Tribune7


Sword of St. Peter chopping off Malchus' ear:

Did you know that the Pope's Swiss Guards and his personal bodyguards are trained by IDF commandos of Israel and that they carry Uzzi's and other weapons right next to the Pope when he is in public?


136 posted on 06/05/2004 10:11:45 AM PDT by bunkerhill7 (The Sword of St. Peter)
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong

Agree, non-Catholics don't get the
distinctions. Point is, Catholics
who heard him condemn us for the
Iraq War realize he claimed no
infallibility; he can be mistaken.

Both Catholics/non-Catholics see/
hear an elderly, sickly, nearly
helpless man expressing views on
who-knows-what faulty impressions
of events in Iraq. The American
people see/hear the Media bash &
bash Bush with his criticisms. So
what else is new from THEM?

I believe we have enough common
sense not to let it rock us.

There was handwringing that the
Pope's words will hurt politically
& Bush should've stayed away.

I, too, disagree, for reasons said in my earlier post(#61), & here


137 posted on 06/05/2004 12:19:57 PM PDT by txrangerette
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To: txrangerette
Well, he may be the 'Vicar of Christ', but I don't think that Pope John Paul II is infallible when it comes to certain geopolitical matters.

Karol Wojtyla may have bravely resisted the Nazis and Communists in his native land, but I don't think he fully grasps the threat that extreme Islam poses to both Western civilization and to the continued survival of Christianity itself.

138 posted on 06/05/2004 12:27:12 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Now make my fat ass a ham sammich, b****! Violent Jay didn't get this svelte wang by eatin' veggies!)
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To: F16Fighter

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030219_migliore-security-council_en.html
INTERVENTION OF H.E. MSGR. CELESTINO MIGLIORE
AT THE MEETING IN THE CHAMBER OF THE
SECURITY COUNCIL OF THE UNITED NATIONS
ON THE IRAQI ISSUE

Wednesday, 19 February 2003
....
The Holy See is closely following the developments on the
ground and expresses its support for the efforts of the
international community towards resolving the crisis within
the sphere of the international legality. For this purpose
and with this in mind, His Holiness Pope John Paul II has
recently sent a Special Envoy to Baghdad, who met with
President Saddam Hussein and delivered him A MESSAGE FROM THE POPE STRESSING, INTER ALIA, THE NEED FOR CONCRETE COMMITMENTS IN FAITHFUL ADHERENCE TO THE RELEVANT RESOLUTIONS OF THE UNITED NATIONS.
A similar message has also been conveyed to Mr. Tarek Aziz,
Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister,
who visited the Pope on 14 February last.



To his Excellency Saddam Hussein
President of Iraq
...
. I am confident that you too, Mr President, will make the most appropriate decisions and will take courageous steps which can be the beginning of a true journey towards peace. As I said publicly last Sunday, A DEMONSTRATION OF READINESS ON YOUR PART cannot fail to bring you honour before your beloved Country, the region and the whole world. In these dramatic hours, I pray that God will enlighten you and GRANT YOU THE STRENGTH TO MAKE A GENEROUS GESTURE WHICH WILL AVOID WAR: it will be a great step before history, for it will mark a victory of international justice and the triumph of that peace to which all people of good will aspire.

From the Vatican, January 15, 1991.

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1991/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19910115_saddam-hussein-bush_en.html


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20031018_sodano-xxv-pontificate_en.html
25th ANNIVERSARY OF THE PONTIFICATE OF JOHN PAUL II:
SYMPOSIUM ORGANIZED BY THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS

INTERVENTION BY CARDINAL ANGELO SODANO

A 25-YEAR PONTIFICATE AT THE SERVICE OF PEACE

18 October 2003
......

11. For Peace in Iraq
War is never just another means that one can choose to employ
for settling differences between Nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good,
EXCEPT AS THE VERY LAST OPTION and in accordance with
very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations"
.....
"The Holy See has learned with deep pain of the development of the latest events in Iraq. ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS TO BE REGRETTED THAT THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT DID NOT ACCEPT THE RESOLUTIONS OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE APPEAL OF THE POPE HIMSELF, AS BOTH ASKED THAT THE COUNTRY DISARM.”
(ORE, 15 January 2003, p. 3).


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/doc
DECLARATION BY THE SECRETARIAT OF STATE
ON THE IRAQI CONFLICT

Thursday, 10 April 2003

VATICAN CITY, APR 10, 2003 (VIS) - The following declaration was released early this afternoon:
SECRETARIAT OF STATE:IRAQ/... VIS 20030410
....
"The Secretariat of State, having been informed of the latest developments in Baghdad, WHICH MARK AN IMPORTANT TURNING POINT IN THE IRAQI CONFLICT AND A SIGNIFICANT OPPORTUNITY FOR THE FUTURE OF THE PEOPLE, hopes that the military operations underway in the rest of the country will soon end, with the aim of sparing further victims, civilian or military, and further suffering for those populations.


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/peace/documents/peace_20030215_decl-card-etchegaray-iraq_en.html
DECLARATION BY CARDINAL ROGER ETCHEGARAY
FOLLOWING HIS MEETING
WITH IRAQI PRESIDENT SADDAM HUSSEIN

Baghdad, 15 February 2003
....
The Church, according to words by Pope John Paul II, is the spokesman of the 'moral conscience of mankind in its purest state, of a mankind that desires peace, that needs peace'.

"It is in this sense that MY MEETING WITH PRESIDENT SADDAM HUSSEIN TOUCHED UPON CONCRETE QUESTIONS THAT I CANNOT MENTION HERE through respect for the person who sent me as well as for the person who received me: It is a matter of seeing if everything has been done to safeguard peace while establishing a climate of confidence that allows Iraq to rediscover its place in the international community.


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030620_sodan
LETTER OF CARD. ANGELO SODANO
TO THE SECRETARY GENERAL
OF THE UNITED NATIONS, MR KOFI ANNAN



His Excellency
Mr. KOFI ANNAN
Secretary General of the United Nations Organization
New York

Dear Mr Secretary General,
.....
The Holy See is confident that the United Nations Organization will be able to develop more efficient and concerted forms of cooperation WHICH WILL ENABLE WORLD LEADERS TO JOIN IN COMBATING SITUATIONS OF INJUSTICE AND OPRESSION, leading to hostility between peoples, rather than building that "family of nations" of which Pope John Paul II spoke in 1995.

From the Vatican, June 5, 2003

Cardinal Angelo Sodano
Secretary of State



139 posted on 06/05/2004 12:30:02 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 (excerpts from the vatican archives: The Sword of St. Peter scabbard concerning IRAQ (my CAP's))
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To: bunkerhill7
Hey man, don't mess with The Vatican!

You don't want to wrangle with those hundred fierce Swiss guardsmen.

Their uniforms may induce spasms of uncontrollable laughter, but that doesn't mean they won't go medieval on your heinie.

140 posted on 06/05/2004 12:36:49 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Now make my fat ass a ham sammich, b****! Violent Jay didn't get this svelte wang by eatin' veggies!)
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