Posted on 05/31/2004 9:00:49 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
This has been a very interesting post; (I have read 300 replies so far.. I have never read so many replies on any topic, ever, lol... but this topic is fascinating.)
This is not addressed to anyone in particular but is a general question for Catholics. If you had not been to confession and were not in the state of grace,.. and were presented with this situation (deny you faith or die).. would you have confidence that you could be killed and still get to Heaven?
(p.s. Note: I'm not interested in arguing Protestant vs Catholic or debating the 'need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation'. Just interested in fellow Catholics' point of view.)
Martyred how? You mean condemned by the “now” Christian state for murdering their fellow Christians? Few of the Donatists were nice people. Just read what St. Optatus or St. Augustine has to say about them and their so-called piety.
Sorry. When I replied earlier I didn't realize the thread was so long.
I agree. What is so obedient about sacrificing one's God-given life, and all of one's duties, for the sake of words? Words that would not, in this case, have been comprehended by a madman?
If one is to take the verse literally, would it not be better to deny Christ to one man so that one might live to affirm Christ to countless more?
I think this man would have had a lot more cause to fear for his soul had he tossed his sacred life away over his own personal interpretation of a verse.
Exactly --- situational ethics is just that --- of course it's easy to be a Christian when there is absolutely no threat --- and Jesus himself had the choice to lie and not be crucified, but then he wouldn't have saved us by doing that. I guess I hope for my sake that God would go real light when it's time to judge --- especially if I was placed in this situation.
Fine then get it right. Like I said before there was no one present to be swayed by him confessing his Christianity. We only know about it now, because he lived to tell about it, Just like Peter. This isn't some existing power on Earth that threatens the existence of Christianity which is already known all over the world. further this guy isn't a priest. He's a simple believer.
Suicide is making a decision to die when you don't have to. "Don't have to" means there's no point to be made by your death. Everyone that will, or would be swayed about this already knows the bad guys are killers.
God doesn't think this guy let him down in the least bit. In fact He is happy to see him alive, so is his family and so am I. Any Christian worth the salt Jesus spoke about also thinks it's good that he is and are happy to see him alive.
you forget race... some so-called christians believe in "temporary eternal life" because they think that God made "eternal life" fragile, so that even the slightest sin or error, will break it.
He told a lie to one madman. Now, through the dissemination of this story, he has told countless millions in all parts of the world that he is a Christian. For this he is in danger of not just punishment, but eternal torture?
Excellent point!!! I for one don't know if I wouldn't have done the same thing given the same situation.
Well, this has been a really interesting thread. I've seen all kinds of possible explanations and interpretations here, that this guy was wrong, that he was right, that he was wrong but can make it right, that there was predestination here by having that piece of filth known as the Koran nearby, etc.
This thread seems to have brought out the "judge" in a lot of people who have posted to it. It's sort of like a Rorschach test (those ink blots the shrinks used to have) of one's attitude about religion and the nature of the relationship of individuals and their deity.
Most enlightening to see how the various Christians (and even non-Christians) have come down on it. One thing's for sure, if it hadn't happened the way that it did, it wouldn't have been nearly as interesting to talk about, would it have been?
According to the Pharisees, yes.
The three most important rules of hermeneutics are these: Context, context, and context.
Yes it is interesting --- and it's not so much about judging this particular man --- but about considering what our own response to such a situation might be --- not just for our religion -- but would we betray our own country as well? Just in case, don't tell me any important national security secrets.
Sadly, the great majority of posts to this thread are from folks who would indentify themselves as Christian. I have noticed a distinctly un-Christian tone to many replies. Calling each other "liars" and worse. We are taught that the "World will know we are Christians by our love one for another". It is possible to discuss these things in a civil and respectful tone, without the personal attacks. Please consider the example we are setting.
yup... and "all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire" Rev 21:8...
looks like mr. "stop putting words in my mouth" liar will be there right along with denyers... oops, in rev 21:8, denyers are not listed... so it looks like liar is going to fry alone... wheras mr denyer may just get by.
unless Jn. 1:9 applies to all of us, we will all be in big trouble...
Thank God, Jesus did not create "temporary eternal life", and weak-as-a-wet-noodle "salvation" for his fragile followers.
"He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out..." (unless he screws up, then I am going to fry him for sure)
I would hope that any deity which inspired a religion worthy of pledging oneself to would be at least as wise as the most free society on the earth, in how the situation is actually dealt with.
That is the first time you've told me.
BTW from experience when you post something really stupid early in a thread, you are going to slammed by just about everyone who comes on the thread. So, if you wish to stop the onslaught of people quoting Matthew about Peter to you, then I'd suggest you just tell the admin moderator to pull your post #6. Either that or stop complaining.
Oh and BTW, if I were a betting man, I'd bet you'd have done the same thing in the same situation. If I were you, I'd bet against me too.
"He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out..." (unless he screws up, then I am going to fry him for sure)
A good example is the prodigal son. But there are so many in the OT and NT that are put there for that purpose, to show us to run TO Him when we fall (and we all definitely will), and not AWAY from Him.
Just denying would get you no punishment I assume, treason can get you the death penalty so I guess the penalty in betrayal depends on the degree.
Still --- our Faith and our nation were built up more by the martyrs and heroes than by the cowards.
It's like watching Braveheart or The Patriot --- how much could we ourselves endure for our beliefs? As much as we might laugh at the French, it's all easy when it's from a distance. Ten years ago it certainly didn't seem like such a real possibility.
Paul used worse language than that while discussing legalism. He went so far as to say that he wished his legalistic friends would castrate themselves.
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