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To: Velveeta

"Wouldn't it be nice if there could be a "do-over" on the creation of Israel....give them France instead?"

No. I wasn't saying that. It would be like trying to get inside the heads of the German people that supported Hitler and the situation that led to his rise after World War I and then saying maybe we shouldn't have won World War I.

In a sense, these years we live in are the big "do-over" for the die we cast after World War I. The West (Britain and France at the time) simply passed the Arabs from one tyrant (the Ottoman Turks) to another (monarchs and dictators of our own creation). So advocates of "political Islam" have positioned themselves as the path to liberty from these oppressors over the decades that followed (first the Muslim Brotherhood, and then in recent years, groups such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Qaeda, and now Sadr). If we do not give them another way out (democracy), then the die is cast.

As for Israel, even Ariel Sharon, father of the settlements and one of the most hawkish Prime Ministers in Israeli history, understands that it is not possible to remain in *all* the territories. Certainly not Gaza. And even parts of Samaria. However, Israeli democracy is highly factionalized and polarized and it makes decision-making of this magnitude extremely difficult. But Israel is not going anywhere. The Arabs deep down really don't care about the Palestinians (any more than ten years ago the African-American community really liked or gave a flip about OJ as a person - - they saw him before as a "sell-out"), but the Arabs are projecting all their historical frustrations on the Palestinian situation (why the word "occupation" strikes such a deep chord in the region). That is why it has to be resolved and, as this President has been the first to declare, the State of Palestine must be created, side by side with Israel, to give the Palestinians a nation where they can be free.

But Israeli roots in the Mideast go back three thousand years.
And you cannot uproot something that is eternal.

Israel and Palestine are not "either-or", they are "both-and", and everyone (who is sane and willing to face reality) knows the basic outlines of the borders. The Israelis are even building a separation wall along these lines. The only question is whether it will take a war unlike any other for the die-hards on both sides to be convinced that they have to abandon their illusions (for one side a Mideast without a Palestinian State, and for the other, a Mideast without a Jewish State).

Otherwise, it will not be for us or them to draw the lines we failed to draw after the first World War, but for the survivors of the next World War to draw the very same lines that could have been drawn now - - before rather than after a holocaust.

It can be an excruciating process to get dreamers to let go of their dreams.


4,013 posted on 06/10/2004 4:56:06 AM PDT by NothingMan
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To: All
"My Conclusion

Based on information that is in addition to what has been presented, my conclusion is that war with North Korea could occur by the end of the summer or in that time period. Many of the US forces needed for this are already in place, more are being dispatched in surge.

I also conclude that such a war would quickly become massively nuclear and also chemical and bacteriological after we first use conventional weapons to attack North Korea's nuclear sites.

Seoul could be lost, as could Tokyo.  But as many as 100 U.S. nuclear weapons might be used to keep this from happening."

Bob Koontz is a Ph.D. experimental nuclear physicist and former member of U.S. intelligence. His national security web site messages may be found at http://www.INTELmessages.org/
4,014 posted on 06/10/2004 4:59:48 AM PDT by milkncookies (BEWARE OF PREGNANT WOMEN DISGUISED AS POLICE WHO SMELL LIKE DYNAMITE!)
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To: NothingMan
No. I wasn't saying that.

I know you weren't saying that. It was my feeble attempt at humor, which is my own defense mechanism against insanity.

Shortly after my post to you last night, with my youngest blissfully sleeping and my eldest beside me discussing President Reagan, a large "blast" literally shook my house. I ran to the window and saw a plume of smoke rise within 1/2 mile of my house. As I ran outside, I wondered...."is this when I just take a deep breath?"

Neighbors were all outside, several of us having called emergency, many more getting in their cars to find out what "it" was. The cops drove through and couldn't find a thing. Nothing new this morning.

I haven't slept wondering what will become of my children and their children to come.

This sucks, Nothingman. As a dreamer myself, I want the nightmare to stop.

I want September 10, 2001 back.

4,048 posted on 06/10/2004 7:51:05 AM PDT by Velveeta ("Do what's right......because it's right." President Ronald Reagan)
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