As a Muslim, i strongly condemn the beheading of Nick Berg

Cyrus ^ | 5/12/04 | Cyrus

[Cyrus the Great]

As an American [applied for citizenship here from Iran since 1999], and a Muslim i would like to strongly condemn the brutal beheading of a fellow American in the hands of Barbarians.

I also, condemn Islamic terrorism across the world and join millions of others in Iran and i'm sure other places across the middle east in condemning these horrible acts.

I moved here in 2000, i was a part of the student uprisings in 1999 in Iran. The very thing that the US is fighting right now in the middle east, are what students in Iran are fighting.

There is no difference between their fight and ours, nor the fight across the middle east between the modernized - moderate form of islam and the radical form.

Unfortunately, moderates have been unwilling to take arms or act aggressively against radical islam and when we have we've been condemned for human rights abuses.

That's all.. after reading some of the posts on here i just wanted to say i'm Muslim and i condemn these acts.

[antiRepublicrat]

Because what the Catholic church did in 600AD was against the teachings of Christianity as given in God's Holy Bible.

You would have been burned at the stake for saying that, because according to the church then what you say is against the teachings. Religions change.

[Honorary Serb]

Thanks for posting this.

As you can see from reading my posts on FR, I am a strong Christian and very pro-Serbian, and have some very hard things to say about islamists/islamofascists. However, I also have quite a few muslim colleagues who are anything but fascist, whom I like very much. They are trying to be both traditionally muslim and citizens of the 21st century, which is hard to do, as you probably know better than I do.

You are right that the Iranian culture (as exemplified by Cyrus) is a great historic culture. I hope that it can go forward into the future without the domination of the theocratic extremists.

[antiRepublicrat]

As I said, when Christians start flying planes into buildings to protest "Sarah Has Two Mommies" or Queer Guy give me a call.

They've started offing abortion doctors and gays. The body count is small, but it's just beginning. Also, the KKK had Christianity at its core belief, and they have a pretty good body count.

[antiRepublicrat]

However, your holy book says it is okay to lie to non-muslims, especially if it is to further the goal of jihad.

Show me.

[ZULU]

The fact that he was singing the praises of one God, may not indicate he acknowledged the existence of others in which he did believe. Also, the various books of the Bible are of different ages and the Psalms may not date to the actual time of David. (The Book of Job is believed to be the oldest recorded book of the Bible, not Genesis.)

Further, if I recall correctly, there were Kings of Israel who followed David, like Manasseh, who worshipped other gods than YHWH and they must have had a significant support among the populace in order to do so.

I don't think Monotheism was so plain, and there are many Biblical Scholars, including Jewish ones, who recognize the idea of an evolving awareness on the part of the Jews of the true nature of the one, true and only God as time went on.

[ZULU]

If you are going to follow the Bible verbatum as a strict verbatum historical document, what you are saying is correct.

However, many Biblical scholars do not accept that interpretation and a good many of them are practising Christians and Jews.

[onedoug]

Still awaiting this grand take on the "Faith of Your... Fathers"?...

[Ramonan]

You just want to be HUMAN.
Thank you for posting. Nobody here, I think, wants to exclude on base of race,religion, or amount of income. For myself, I do not want to hear from those who preach HATE.

[Prodigal Daughter]

I think that Islam was originally founded by war...

And I think that you are culturally an Iranian Muslim, but not deeply religious, and if you really study Mohammed and the many different translations and hadiths and current fatwas, you will come over from the dark side. BTW, my mother was named after the non-prophet's daughter but my Druze Syrian grandpa who immigrated, became a proud American and became a non-Muslim.

Here are some testimonies of ex-Moslems if you are ever curious to read them. Here are some more, and this is a good book that I read, if I recall correctly, took place in Iran around the beginning of the 20th century, converts to Christianity faced much persecution even then: William McElwee Miller, Ten Muslims Meet Christ, Eerdmans, 1969, 1987, 150 pages, ISBN 0-8028-1304-6, tells the stories of ten Iranian converts

I hope I haven't offended you by suggesting that you read them. Shalom,

[oceanperch]

I have read your posts over the last year and it is obvious where your heart is. : ) God Bless You.

[GOPJ]

Thanks for the post bump

[what's up]

I'm talking about the Psalms of David which comprise most of the book of Psalms. It's very, very clear that David did not worship any other God than the One. If you were familiar with his Psalms you would know this.

Since you point out the book of Job, it's good to recognize that this oldest book also is heavily monotheistic.

[ZULU]

Just because somebody worships only one God doesn't necessary mean he doesn't believe other gods exist.

The early Hebrews believed that YHWH was the tribal God of Israel, that He was greater than the gods of other nations.

A very differnt perspcetive from what came later - the realization that only YHWH existed and there never were "other" gods at all.

Look at the ten commandments "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange gods before Me", instead of "I am the Lord thy God, the only God which exists."

[freeperfromnj]

NJ Muslims denounce beheading of American in Iraq

By WAYNE PARRY
The Associated Press
5/13/2004, 10:40 a.m. ET

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) — Muslim groups in New Jersey condemned the beheading of an American in Iraq, saying his captors violated Islamic law and human decency.

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1084459757168560.xml

[onedoug]

And, uh...what do they say about this kind of thing in Israel?

That is, if they can somehow get past its "right" to exist.

[freeperfromnj]

I agree that they need to denounce it across the board.

[elbucko]

Magi were Zoroastrian priests.

I took a college extension course on the Worlds Religions awhile back. Among those covered were a cursory explanation of Zoroaster and his "philosophies"(?). I found one concept very appealing, that is the idea that good deeds harm the devil (or evil) and inversely empower God, (or goodness). I like that. Works for me.

I have often wondered if Jesus had spent some time in Persia, prior to His ministry, among the Zoroastrians and absorbed their concept of deeds being important to faith.

If I were to become active in a religion, it would be Zoroastrian. However, I doubt if they'd let me wear my cowboy hat with their robes, so I reckon I'll remain the heathen that I am, but seek to do good deeds.

[Dajjal]

Desertdoc,

Can you shed any light on the discussion in #335 about the translation of various surahs from the Arabic?

Especially the "72 grapes" assertion. LOL!

tnlibertarian wrote: How do you interpret the following verses?

Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly. (Sura 4:90)

Fight them until Islam reigns supreme. (Sura 2:193)

Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers. (Sura 8:12)

Allah threatens the Muslim who does not make war on the "unbelievers" with death. (Sura 9:39)

I am sure that you will find strange things if you look in the Quran. I do not read Arabic so I have to use a translation. I use http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
It has three translations

Sura 4:90

YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

Perhaps the Sura you mentioned was another Sura?

Sura 2:193

YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

This was approximately correct.

Sura 8:12

YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

This seems to be directed to the angles and not to the humans.

Sura 9:39

YUSUFALI: Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.

PICKTHAL: If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.

SHAKIR: If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.

This is not the same as you mentioned, but perhaps Allah has switched to "other people". Many Muslim countries are poor. This is strange for Sura 17:30 says: YUSUFALI: Verily thy Lord doth provide sustenance in abundance for whom He pleaseth, and He provideth in a just measure. For He doth know and regard all His servants.

PICKTHAL: Lo! thy Lord enlargeth the provision for whom He will, and straiteneth (it for whom He will). Lo, He was ever Knower, Seer of His slaves.

SHAKIR: Surely your Lord makes plentiful the means of subsistence for whom He pleases and He straitens (them); surely He is ever Aware of, Seeing, His servants.

Perhaps poor Muslim countries are full of people who do not please Allah? (this is especially true for Saudi Arabia as their income per capita has dwindled from about $20,000 to $8,000 the last decades)

But, the Quran is probably of Syriac Arameic origin http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol6No1/HV6N1PRPhenixHorn.html and many interpretations are wrong for instance the 72 virgins in Paradise = 72 grapes in the garden!

335 posted on 05/13/2004 2:33:08 AM PDT by AdmSmith

[ZULU]

I'm not a Zoroastrian.

But it's my understanding that there are two schools of Zoroastrianism - the Parsees who are descended from refugees from Iran, after the Islamic invasion and subsequent slaughter of Zoroastrians, who then settled in India, and Zoroastrians who are directly from Iran and managed to survive there despite ferocious persecution by the Muslims.

The Parsees do not permit conversions and do not allow intermarriage. Some of the Iranian Zoroastrians have accepted converts, but Zoroastrians are not a proselytizing religion.

They believe that whatever one was born was part of God's plan and, in general, its best for each individual to follow the religion they were born into and try to lead the best life possible in that faith as that will in turn lead to that individual's salvation.

However, these are contemporary Zoroastian beliefs. Obviously neither Zoroaster nor the people he converted in ancient Iran thought this way, or his religion would never have become as widespread as it once was, before the plague of Islam.

Zoroastrians, while found worldwide, are a dying religion, primarily due their reluctance to proselytize. Its amazing as there are many positive aspects to this faith which contemporary individuals would find refreshingly appealing.

[Frunabulax]

I don't want to be unfair to you, but I think you might want to know how I interpret the generic muslim condemnation of barbaric acts. I hope you can help me to better understand your position.

As an American [applied for citizenship here from Iran since 1999], and a Muslim i would like to strongly condemn the brutal beheading of a fellow American in the hands of Barbarians.

["I condemn the actions of barbarians, but not, of course, the barbarians themselves who, being muslims, are infinitely better than you filthy infidel dogs (ptooey, ptooey!)."]

I also, condemn Islamic terrorism across the world and join millions of others in Iran and i'm sure other places across the middle east in condemning these horrible acts.

[Repeat, for emphasis, condemnation of the acts but not the actors]

I moved here in 2000, i was a part of the student uprisings in 1999 in Iran. The very thing that the US is fighting right now in the middle east, are what students in Iran are fighting.

[Students in Iran are fighting to protect American lives? Please, tell me more. The last time I saw any action by Iranian "students" was when they invaded U.S. territory and held American citizens hostage.]

There is no difference between their fight and ours, nor the fight across the middle east between the modernized - moderate form of islam and the radical form.

[Just so you know, Americans are not fighting for or against any form of islam. We are fighting to protect our homes and families from people who would destroy them. Islam has absolutely nothing to do with it.]

Unfortunately, moderates have been unwilling to take arms or act aggressively against radical islam and when we have we've been condemned for human rights abuses.

[Okay, no argument there. Plenty of cowardice to go around, everywhere in the world, including here.]

That's all.. after reading some of the posts on here i just wanted to say i'm Muslim and i condemn these acts.

[Again, condemning the acts, as if his head just accidently fell off by mistake, instead of condemning the people who did it. I have not heard a single muslim, influential or not, who has disowned these people. I'm not holding my breath.]

Sorry to be so blunt, but I hope you can correct any errors I've made here.