Kerry Bronze Star Certificate signature questioned. Investigation warranted?

Kerry's PDF Military Files on his Website ^ | 4-15-04 | me

[celtic gal]

What I wish they had posted on the website is the whole package with the original date of the original correspondence recommending the award for the Bronze Star and Silver Star, All that is posted is the correspondence which was readressed and forwarded and signed by the CNO at the time, Admiral Zumwalt on the Bronze Star and it looks like Lehman as SECNAV. Depending upon when the original letter was prepared and the time it got up the pipeline would be interesting.

We all have seen reports where the original correspondence gets lost and years later the award is signed and presented.

I am not a Kerry fan..can't stand him. Would like to see the entire package.
As for the Purple Hearts...who knows how those were awarded or who wrote up the citations..there should be a paper trail I would think.

[Kadric]

Actually the F-102 was active in Vietnam until 1970.

The one question that comes to mind about this thread is that I read the first 300 posts without anyone asking if it was possible that these are reconstructed records. The storage center had a fire in the early 70's and are still trying to reconstruct records. If by some chance some of Kerry's records were among those destoyed would the reconstucted records require the SoN's signitures?

[Robert A Cook PE]

Note to self.

Self, Re-read Rules Nbr 1 and 2.

Rule Nbr 1.

Never attack a fellow freeper.

Rule Nbr 2.

Always clarify whether (sarcastic) replies are addressed to the "replie" or to the "person the "replie" responded to...

[Robert A Cook PE]

Addressed before: The original records (and signatures of authorizing admirals, and of Lehman on the Bronze Star and Silver Star citations) are available.

Not burned.

[jackbill]

Could his service been revued ten years later and then the medal awarded?

Let's see. John Kerry was elected Senator in 1984, about the middle of John Lehman's tenure as Sec. of the Navy. If a Senator calls the Sec. of the Navy and asks for something, isn't he likely to get it? It's called quid pro quo. You give me a medal or two, and I'll see that the Navy gets its appropriation.

[Robert A Cook PE]

15 years later? For "award" and medals paperwork?

When the MEDAL can't be awarded (leagally) until the paperwork gets back to the "rewarding" unti?

When the "rewardee" is an admiral's aide, with all the paperwork assistance and clerks and staff "right there" to do just that?

Nah.

Wouldn't have happened.

By accident, at least.

Nope.

For whatever reason, he got the medals.

Then, some 15 years later, after Kerry becomes a Senaotr, Lehman signs a different version of the citation as SecNAV.

So, when they WERE fighting the Vietnam War, who had been designated "silver Star" signature authority?

Could CINCPAC actually award it? (He signed the second citation.... Why was there a second one issued for same action?)

Could Zumwalt, as Commander US Naval Forced Vietnam, sign it? (He did.)

Could Zumwalt sign (and authorize!) the Bronze Star?

Who, in the Freeper World, has received a Bronze Star?

Who, in the Freeper World, has received a Star Star who can show us the "authorizing" signature of either?

[Alamo-Girl]

Hmmm ... thanks for the ping!

[Robert A Cook PE]

This is the "official policy" on replacement paperwork and lost awards paperwork.

Trying to make an excuse that 15 years went by can't fly.

...

From the DOD Awards manual

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/134833m_0996/p134833m.pdf

C3.3.6. Lost Recommendations. Recommendations officially placed into command or staff channels in the prescribed time limitations, but which were not acted on through loss or inadvertence, may be resubmitted at any time within the 2 years after the distinguished act, achievement, or service for consideration to the appropriate awarding authority. Lost recommendations must be forwarded through the same official channels and are contingent upon the requirements described in paragraphs C3.3.6.1. through C3.3.6.3., below. Recommendations not so documented shall be returned without action. The resubmission must include the following:

C3.3.6.1. A copy of the original recommendation or its substantive equivalent. Minimally, the recommendations should be accompanied by statements, certificates, and affidavits corroborating the events or services involved. The person signing a reconstructed award recommendation must be identified clearly in terms of his or her official relationship to the intended recipient at the time of the act or during the period of service to be recognized.

C3.3.6.2. Conclusive evidence that the recommendation was officially placed in command or staff channels in the prescribed time limit (paragraph C3.3.4., above).

C3.3.6.3. Conclusive evidence of the loss of the recommendation or the failure to act on the recommendation through inadvertence.

...

So, there goes anybody's excuse that the award was ;lost" or "delayed" in paperwork.

15 years is "slightly" past the limit.

(But NOT if you're a self-serving democratic Senator from Massachusetts!)

[GummyIII]

In case you haven't seen this: Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record: Ex-skipper says website wrong

[MonroeDNA]

Giant bump!!!!!!

Kerry is hiding thsi stuff, and it MUST move forward.

AFTER the nomination, or the lesbian wll take over.

[Darksheare]

True, teh rubber stamp signature deal.
One reason why my last battalion XO hated them, they were too easy for anyone to use whether he wanted it signed or not.
His way of guaranteeing that he'd actually seen what his signature was going onto.

[Darksheare]

I was going off my experience in uniform with my last Battalion XO, he preferred to hand sign things since rubber stamps are too easy for anyone to use whether or not he'd actually seen the paper himself.

[dennisw]

One Kerry watcher said, John Kerry has told at least three different versions of where he threw all or some of his medals or someone else's medals over the wall. Papers signed in 1986 for replacements say he threw some of his medals over the wall in protest.

[celtic gal]

Took another look at all the citations and my husband's Purple Heart is signed by General Chapman who was CMC in 1969. The wounds were dated March 1969 and the award signed and dated in December 1969. Those Purple Hearts should have dates on them. In face all the awards my husband has are signed and dated as of the day the Purple Heartm Bronze Stars, Air Medals and LOM were awarded.

I suppose those vets who receive an award umteen years later recieve the award because the citation was prepared within the regulated time constraints and unearthed many years later. We have all seen news stories where a WW II vet or Korean Conflict vet is presented an award much later. This is not a defense of Kerry. I too think something is odd here. Could he have written himself up for the awards?

[celtic gal]

I have one of those...wish I could trade it in for one signed by President Bush. I have heard stories of other retirees who ran that certificate through a shredder and other laminated it and put as a place mat..( maybe for Fido or Fluffy). The certificate is gorgeous but really stained badly with Billy Jeffs signature. Mine is not framed.

[celtic gal]

Yep, that is just what the signature looks like on my husbands Bronze Stars, Air Medal, DFC.No way to mistake that for Lehman's signature. Glad someone found this way to post this.

[kaehurowing]

I would like to make some comments on the three citations that have been referred to: No. 1 (Zumwalt); No. 2 (Hyland), and No. 3 (Lehman).

Comments have been made about the difference between citations 2 and 3, but to me what is striking is the difference between the original citation 1, on the one hand, and 2 and 3 on the other.

If you read Citation 1, you get the impression that Kerry was the modern naval equivalent of Horatio Hornblower or "Lucky" Jack Aubrey of the Patrick O'Brian series. It gives the impression that it was the single-handed leadership of Kerry which saved the day, as well as his personal assault upon the enemy.

In particular, it states he single-handedly went ashore in pursuit of a VC that was apparently shooting rockets at his ship, single-handedly killed him and recovered the rocket launcher.

In Citations 2 and 3 Lt. (j.g.) Kerry's personal involvement in the action has been substantially toned down. For example, the citation now states that Kerry's boat 23 and 94 moved upstream because of a "request from U.S. advisors ashore," not because of Kerry's command of the operation.

Most glaringly different is the description of Kerry's supposed assault on shore. While the first citation posits that he single-handedly went after a VC and killed him and captured the rocket launcher supposedly aimed at his boat, this is totally absent from citations 2 and 3. They simply say "he personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy." They go on to say that "upon sweeping the area, an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed." Absolutely no specific reference to Kerry's supposed personal bravery in single-handed attack on the rocket position, or any reference to the rocket-bearing VC. If it had happened don't you think the subsequent citations would continue to mention Kerry's supposed personal action with regard to the VC, since it would have been the principal reason he would have been entitled to the Silver Star?

Which leads me to ask this question: Who submitted the original report on Kerry's actions? Since he was the commanding officer of the mission, didn't Kerry himself write and submit the action report which would have formed the initial basis for the award?

Which leads me to posit this theory on why there were these multiple citations. Kerry's initial citation was based largely upon his own "puffed up" account of what had occurred which exaggerated his actions. Upon reflection in later years, Kerry decided this could come back to haunt him (e.g., that other persons would not verify what was in the citation). Therefore, he had the citation re-issued so that while it still seemed apparent that he was entitled to the Silver Star, it reduced reference to his personal involvement.

Which would also explain why the original citation, which is the most glowing as to his personal actions, has not been posted on his website. He does not want people asking the questions I am asking.

[kabar]

So, there goes anybody's excuse that the award was ;lost" or "delayed" in paperwork. 15 years is "slightly" past the limit.

More ammo. It becomes clearer and clearer to me that the Lehman signed citations are for replacement medals (the physical ones) or that Kerry claimed he never received them (despite fotos to the contrary). Such a request coming from a Senator would be accommodated by any SECNAV, especially if Kerry provided the original citations.

[kabar]

Here is my take on the differences between the Zumwalt, Hyland, and Lehman versions of the Silver Star citations

Zumwalt: This is more than likely the original citation taken from the award submission. Normally, as part of the nomination form, the nominator must provide a synopsis of the award (citation) that can fit on a single page suitable for framing with the certificate. I suspect that Zumwalt forwarded the award to CINCPAC, ADM Hyland, for the final signature, including the citation. Due to the lengthy time delays processing these awards, it is not unreasonable to posit that it took CINCPAC for 12-18 months later. It is worth noting that the requirement to go to CINCPAC applied only to the Silver Star, hence only the Zumwalt and Lehman citations for the Bronze Star. p> Hyland: CINCPAC probably edited the Zumwalt citation to make it fit on to one page and to clean it up a bit to fit the existing format.

Lehman: Except for the last sentence, the citation is the same as Hyland's. What makes this curious is that it is many years later, at least a decade, and I doubt if Silver Stars had to go to SECNAV for approval. My take is that Kerry requested replacement medals (physical ones) and due to the fact that Kerry was no longer an active servicmember, administrative requirements mandated that SECNAV's office had to approve the issue of the replacments once it was verified from official records that Kerry had actually earned them.

Now that we have the Drudge Report item that Kerry said he threw his own medals away (something he has denied including on his website), I believe Kerry really did throw his medals away and decided in the 1980s, either during his run for LT Governor in 1982 or the Senate in 1984, that he wanted the medals replaced so he could exhibit them. He probably never thought that anyone would be investigating all of this 20 years later.