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To: shroudie
I've read so many arguments about carbon-dating--and they are really kind of boring--this garment could be dated in other ways.

But so few facts as to the common-sense nature of this textile, only those speaking to the curiosity of the image. How many pieces are joined together? How wide are the pieces--(width of weft)-- Are there selvedges, or have these been removed? Have some expert spinners been given samples of the thread? Is the fiber itself of long, valuable part of the flax plant or the coarser tow? While there were hand-spinners in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, evidence that this thread was spun on a wheel would quickly rule against authenticity.

They need someone who knows old textiles in general, not just experts on antiquities with little interest or experience in the hand mfg of fabric. For instance, a home weaver of good experience could describe that hem stitching better than the PHd who claims to see similarities to a garment of Masada. There are only so many ways you can make a seam, and only so many ways to hem it. A ladies' sewing circle could add more facts, frankly.

First off, the fact that it is a joined fabric may speak against authenticity--there is a mystique to whole cloth. But that's only one small point.

32 posted on 04/14/2004 9:23:13 AM PDT by Mamzelle (for a post-Neo conservatism)
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To: Mamzelle
I'm not aware of any ladies' sewing circles who have examined the Shroud; only textile experts. As for the thread (technically yarn), it is an handspun Z twist.

I'm not sure that I understand why a seam would argue against authenticity. Are we to say that seams on the Masada cloths challenge their authenticy? Masada did fall to the Romans and no one went their and planted cloths to full archeologists.

I do suspect that you think it should be a single piece of unseamed cloth for Jesus. There is nothing biblical to that. The cloth from the Syrian or Egyptian style looms preduced a fairly wide cloth. It seems from some sources that Jewish burial custom required a shroud that was one cubit wide. To make sure the cloth was the right width a very expensive, single seam was created (some of the cloth's width was removed) between the selvidges. We should not be tempted to say that Jesus was buried according to the custom of the Jews -- but not exactly. What was mystique in Jesus' day? I take John's Gospel very seriously.

I think you are somewhat unfair to Flurry-Lemberg. She was an expert weaver from childhood who gravitated to acadamia.

There is much other evidence that is not carbon 14 oriented. One is the lack of any vanillin on the Shroud. Medieval cloths have vanillin which disappears with age. For instance, wrappings for the Dead Sea scrolls have lost all vanillin. There is the fact that the thread (excuse me, yarn) was bleached in hanks rather than as was done in the medieval period in question by bleaching the whole cloth after the loom (the bleaching fields of this period are well documented). Archeological evidence and another burial shroud found in the Hinnon valley lend credence to authenticity as a 1st century burial cloth.

Shroudie
33 posted on 04/14/2004 10:23:09 AM PDT by shroudie
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