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To: AdmSmith; shroudie
The following facts are an antidote to that scientific and historical revisionism:

- The shroud contradicts the Gospel of John, which describes multiple cloths (including a separate "napkin" over the face), as well as "an hundred pound weight" of burial spices--not a trace of which appears on the cloth.

Oops! Note to debunking guy: Do a little reading so you don't fall on your face with your first debunking "factoid". ;-)

37 posted on 04/12/2004 8:15:25 AM PDT by an amused spectator (FR: Leaving the burning dog poop bag of Truth on the front door step of the liberal media since 1996)
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To: an amused spectator
Dear Amused. What did I miss? Here is some material from Albert "Kim" Dreisbach.

Students new to the study to the Shroud are sometimes confused by apparent inconsistencies in the description of Jesus' burial cloth or cloths. In truth, the Bible - when read in Greek - uses a variety of terms to describe them.

The Synoptic Gospels use the word sindon in the singular to designate the Shroud (Matt. 27:59; Mk. 15:46 (twice); Lk. 23:53). Sindon appears only six times in all of the New Testament. In an anecdote unique to Mark, it is used twice in 14: 51-52 to describe the linen cloth left by an unnamed young man when he fled naked from the Garden of Gethsemane.

In Jn. 19:40, the Fourth Gospeller uses the word othonia [Gk.] (plural) to describe the linen cloths used in the Burial. Othonia, a word of uncertain meaning, but probably best translated as a generic plural for grave clothes. The same word is used by Luke or his scribe in Lk.24:12 what had previously been described as the sindon in Lk. 23:53. Note: vs. l2 (But Peter rose and ran to the tomb, stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths (plural) by themselves; and he went home wondering what happened.) does not appear in the most ancient manuscripts, but is added by later ancient authorities.

Next we discover (keirias) [Gk.] translated by the RSV as bandages in Jn. 11:44's description of the raising of Lazarus. In actuality, linen strips used to bind the wrists and ankles and probably also used on the outside at the neck, waist and ankles to secure the Shroud to the body.

Finally we come to the word sudarion [Gk.] which is found in the canonical texts solely in John (11:44. 20:7) and Luke (l9:20; Acts l9:12). It is translated by the RSV as "the napkin which had been on his head" (Jn. 20:7) and earlier in 11:44 as the cloth with which Lazarus' face was wrapped. Scholars like the late Dr. John A.T Robinson ( "The Shroud of Turin and the Grave Cloths of the Gospels") and J.N. Sanders regard it as a chin band going around the face/head for the purpose of keeping the corpse's jaws closed. Certainly this appears to be the intent of the artist who drew the manuscript illustration for the Hungarian Pray mss, Fol. 27v, Budapest of 1192-95 which clearly illustrates that the Shroud's full length image(s) were known in the 12th century. (See Ian Wilson, 1986, The Mysterious Shroud, Garden City, NY; Doubleday & Company, p.115. See also Bercovits, I. 1969, Dublin: Irish University Press. Illuminated Manuscripts in Hungary, pl. III.) .

You might also want to check out for some more material on the napkin:

http://shroudstory.com/faq-sudarium.htm

Or are we talking about the spices?

Pierluigi Baima Bollone of the University of Turin reported in March of 2000 finding, by means of immunofluorescence, both aloe and myrrh in the areas of the right foot, the back and an off-image area. Unfortunately, his work was not submitted for peer review or published as a refereed paper. His findings lack confirmation. Furthermore, it is challenged by peer reviewed findings. According to strict observance of the rules of scientific methods, Bollone’s findings cannot be considered evidentiary.

Aloe is a mixture of glycosides. It is a drug obtained by evaporating the juice of the leaves of several species of aloe

Myrrh is a complex mixture of resin acids, resenes, phenolic compounds, a polypentosan gum composed of arabinose units, and a bunch of terpenes. Myrrh, as a funerary spice, was often in the form of a yellow or yellowish-green oil that has a very piercing odor. However it may have been in powder form if its natural volatile oils were evaporated. Several of its components, like thymol, should have reacted with cellulose of the linen and there is not evidence of that

Both spices could have been mired with oil or used in powdered form. If they were ever in contact with the cloth, whether as an oil or a powder, some fractions should still be there. Scientists, using a Pyrolysis Mass Spectrometry system at the National Science Foundation's "Center of Excellence" at the University of Nebraska, no characteristic molecules of either aloes or myrrh were detected. Other visible light and UV spectra tests and wet chemistry tests did not find the spices.

How do we interpret the biblical narratives? Were the women returning to complete the burial on Easter morning? If the burial were not yet finished, is it possible that the expensive spices had not yet been used? If Luke 24:1 says: "But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared..." (RSV)

Shroudie
43 posted on 04/12/2004 8:36:49 AM PDT by shroudie
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