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To: Tailback
Since the Army may be going to the huge expense of adopting the XM8, why not allow it to accept longer cartridges like the .260 Rem (6.5 X 08)?

That defeats the whole purpose of the intermediate cartridge: to give the infantryman more firepower and more mobility. A 6.5 x 51mm cartridge would probably require a nine pound weapon to avoid soldier fatigue in combat.

What people are telling you about using sniper or crew-served weapons beyond 600m is straight doctrine. Remember, a combat unit is not individual riflemen on the range. The power of the unit resides principally in its MGs and mortars. The riflemen keep these vital power-projectors from being flanked. There is a range at which your prime weapons are your crew served weapons; and there are special purpose weapons available for the rare situation where you need to bring aimed fire on individuals at 600+ meters. You should see what happens when you put scopes on the SAWs and M240s (which we have done). It's a beautiful thing, unless you're an enemy.

You can suppress at 600-800m with the M4/M16 as it is. The accuracy of the weapon is seriously degraded at 800m but it is definitely accurate enough to get the enemy to put his head down. But with a 6.5x51mm weapon, like a 7.62x51mm one, you can't carry enough ammo to go around wildly suppressing stuff.

Afghan or Iraq are a bit rare in that you do get long range shots. In Vietnam a typical sniper shot was 150m. Most firefights took place at under 20m! In Europe in training, I very seldom could see 100m straight, let alone have hopes of engaging a target there. Infantrymen are not meant to go fighting in the wide open spaces -- that's why those dudes in the rolling foxholes still have a place in the Army today. (It's also why we like to have an Apache overhead when we are out in the open like that).

Many people focus on the rifle as if it existed by itself, in a vacuum. No, it is part of the system that is a soldier. In turn, he is part of the system that is the unit. While I don't doubt that, say, the .270 Win would be better for shooting THAT guy THERE dead RIGHT NOW, it would be a grievously bad decision for the system that is an SF team, an infantry company, or an entire Army. (Weight of ammunition not only impacts your soldier but your whole logistics train. You might wind up needing double the air sorties to transport ammo. Is it worth it? I dunno -- that's why we send smart guys to general staff colleges, to answer questions like that. But it has to be considered by people who can make informed comparisons, which doesn't include me).

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

58 posted on 03/21/2004 8:08:50 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
You bring up very valid points, I just wish the Army would leave at least 5mm "wiggle room" in the XM8 for wildcatters to work with. Your post also reminds me that just because the long range shots are there in Iraq and Afqhanistan doesn't mean the next conflict won't be in a jungle where engagements are at less than 100m.
64 posted on 03/21/2004 8:20:18 PM PST by Tailback
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To: Criminal Number 18F; archy; Army Air Corps; BushMeister; IGOTMINE; reluctantwarrior; Squantos; ...
..Remember, a combat unit is not individual riflemen on the range. The power of the unit resides principally in its MGs and mortars...

Question: What would be the best rifle for the "Second Amendment Miltia", which would not have those assets available to it?

166 posted on 03/27/2004 10:47:27 PM PST by Screaming_Gerbil (Let's Roll...)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Have you seen the 6.5 Grendel? Like the 6.8 Rem SPC it operates in the AR15 / M16, but has a decided ballistics advantage giving the AR15 / M16 true 800 M aimed fire capability and supressive fire capability beyond 1,000 yards.

For comparison (velocities all from 24 inch barrels for fairness)

6.8mm 115 Grain Sierra MatchKing = .340 BC (2800 fps)
6.5mm 108 Grain Lapua Scenar = .481 BC (2850 fps)
6.5mm 123 Grain Lapua Scenar = .542 BC (2750 fps)

The 6.5 Grendel is a 1,000 yard aimed fired cartridge. A 16 inch barrel AR15 version fired the 123 Lapua at Fort Knox on the 900 yard tank range and scored 6.5" groups at that distance. Best of all, the 6.5 Grendel has 50% less recoil then the 7.62 NATO and 32% less ammunition weight.

To see learn more about the 6.5 Grendel

http://www.65grendel.com

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2004/03/65mm_grendel_ak.html


187 posted on 03/31/2004 5:32:16 AM PST by tx65
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