Posted on 03/04/2004 10:24:16 PM PST by churchillbuff
Edited on 03/05/2004 10:48:45 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Ethan: Subtle, but nonetheless incorrect. I presented the Biblical account of the killing of Christ from God's "perspective." The only exception would be St. Ignatius since his writings were not inspired; however, even St. Ignatius is bearing witness to "God's perspective" as his statements are in full accord with the New Testament (and that he received his teaching directly from St. John is no small matter).
Every word of Scripture is the verbally inspired, inerrent word of God, all of it is God-breathed -- the historical record of the New Testament is God's historical record of the events (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20).
Not a single statement of "bondserv" overturns the uniform and consistent testimony of the inspired New Testament or the witness of the early Christian church: the Jews killed Jesus Christ. "bondserv" recklessly confuses this most serious subject because he attempts to divide Holy Scripture against itself, attributing parts with less divine authority than others.
Moreover, "bondserv" confuses even the Scriptures he uses in a blatant example of eisegsis due to his apparent ignorance between God's effective will and God's permissive will in the events of salvic history. Ignorance is unfortunately equated with "piety" in much of modern American churchianity due to the damaging effects of (much) of dispensationalism and its "escapist" mentality; gladly even many dispensationalist scholars have jettisoned this anti-biblical view of epistemology in recent years.
The eminent Reformed scholar J. Gresham Machen noted almost 80 years ago concerning this phenomena:
"The childlike simplicity of faith is marred sometimes by ignorance, but never by knowledge; it will never be marred--and has never been marred in the lives of the great theologians--by the blessed knowledge of God and the Saviour Jesus Christ which is contained in the Word of God. (J. Gresham Machen, What is Faith? Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, 1925, 1991), p. 96.
In short, God is sovereign in his purposes yet God is not culpable in any sense for the killing of Christ, or for any other crime even when the crime's fulfill His eternal purposes (cf. Joseph being sold into slavery by his brother's). bondserv's lack of serious theological consideration from a Biblical foundation and his humanistic influence on his view of Scripture (even if he is not aware of it) is readily apparent.
"Those who crucified Christ acted in perfect harmony with the freedom of their own sinful natures, and were alone responsible for their sin." (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. P&R, 1932), p. 247.
This is in full accordance with the historic testimony of the Christian faith in its most precise summary of Biblical doctrine:
Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) Chapter III."Of God's Eternal Decree."
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
The record of God's inspired Scripture is consistent, clear and conclusive:
"For ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." (1 Thessalonians 2:14-15; the words penned by St. Paul are the inspired words of God and His historical record).
"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he [Pilot] had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this." (Acts 3:13-15; the words penned by St. Luke are the inspired words of God and His historical record).
"For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18; the words penned by St. John are the inspired words of God and His historical record).
"When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, "As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified." Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. "But not during the Feast," they said, "or there may be a riot among the people" (Matthew 26:1-5; the words penned by St. Matthew are the inspired words of God and His historical record).
The early testimony of the historic Christian faith is in full accord with God's "perspective" on the events and all the "piety" of Biblically and historically obtuse persons cannot change this fact:
"The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness, drew all men to Himself for their eternal salvation." (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans. chapter. II, "Christ's True Passion.")
Case closed.
You want identification papers, really? You need a "group or its doctrinal statement for me to comment further."
No, no. Now that you have published the reference I need not further identification. You must admit, there are some wild and crazy theories out there about the ten lost tribes and identification. I am just being cautious so as to not jump to conclusions prematurely. What I understand from you, thus far, the gist of it is :
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
I have no problem with this.
I understand the culture in asSharq alAwsat is different. I know that Udai and Qusay had a very difficult time rebuking their father. I know that Bashar had a very difficult time rebuking his father. I know that any offspring of Yasser would have a difficult time rebuking him. I know all this.
The Gibson family is not like any of those families. Mel would not lightly rebuke his father for minor issues. He would respect him. The Holocaust Denial and Antisemitism are not minor issues. I find no Biblical excuse for a genuine Christian to hold his peace in the face of a such clear public sin by a parent. He should definitely go to him privately first, one on one. Should that fail, and the sin persist, he should go to him with other members of his Church (but we have a problem there, no ?). When the sin becomes so public we have another problem. In fact, the problem with 4% of the fathers in the Catholic Church of this generation was that too many people held their peace and kept if quite private.
Now Hutton's sin is no where as notorious as that of that minority of fathers, yet who knows if someone had rebuked them earlier what lives might have been spared ? Open rebuke is better than secret love. Open sin should be rebuked, both for the sinner and those who are affected and influenced by such sin. Hutton Gibson has clearly sinned and no one is doing him any favors by not addressing it.
Right now I'm reading The Life of Jesus Christ, by Giuseppe Ricciotti. The book was written following WW I, and is actually a historical account, as much as a chronicling of that period can rightfully be called one, of the period in which Jesus was born and lived.
So far, it's proving to be an incredible piece of scholarship, and while there really is no mention of Palestinians, per se, the term Palestine is used profusely throughout the text with an actual map titled 'Palestine At The Time Of Christ'.
Quoting directly from the book text, following are how the borders of the map of that time are laid out:
"Palestine is flanked by natural borders, the Mediterranean on the west and the Syrio-Arabian desert on the east. On the north and south her natural boundaries are not so well defined, although in the north a clear enough division is marked by the Lebanon mountain range. This descends parallel to the Mediteranean and is bordered on the interior by the Anti-Lebanon range, from which Mount Hermon rises like a vanguard. The pass between Hermon and Lebanon may be considered the nothrern boundary of Palestine. The southern boundary is represented in general by Idumaea and the desert regions which extend directly below Beersheba and the Dead Sea. These are the two boundaries, northern and southern, frequently referred to in the Old Testament phrase, "from Dan to Beersheba," to denote that part of Palestine inhabited by the Hebrews."
The original book was written in Italian by Mr. Ricciotti, Professor at the University of Rome and published in 1941. Translation was produced by Alba I. Zizzamia of Trinity College, Ocotber 1946.
Not educated enough to reply authoritatively. But, if you don't mind, is your assertion based on contending claims between Israel and Palestinians?
Also, thanks for providing me with relevant passages of Scripture to read. I'll try to study Chapter and Verse you've recommended throughout the week. I'm sorry to say, I'm a slow reader.
Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”It was a statement loaded with more meaning than they intended, bringing them a blessing in spite of themselves.He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
That's what the cross is all about.
I believe that upwards of 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. But if someone believes it were 2 million or 4 million-- isn't that quite enough to demonstrate the Nazis were evil bastards who deserve to burn in Hell?
And I don't understand why you, a clearly intelligent guy, needs to set up a straw man like the murderous Tikritis to compare to Gibson and his father. The Baathists killed people I knew. You know it's different but you bring it up anyway.
You say there is no biblical excuse for a Christian to hold his peace on public sin. While I'm not a Christian, and I'm not looking for excuses for anybody, I can give you a very old commandment that goes something like this...
HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER
As a Muslim, here's the way I look at it: Mohammed said that even if your parents are pagans who curse you and prevent you from practicing your faith, do not respond with unkindness. I think it goes like this...
"Speak to them not like the braying of an ass, but Guide them to righteousness, but gently, as Heaven rests beneath the feet of your mother and father"
And thank you for the info on the book. I'd love to read it. The description you quote from is an accurate depiction of the Roman province of Palestine.
HE HAS RISEN! Jesus Christ, today, extends the gift of salvation to all that would believe on Him.
I am not your bro.
It neither surprises nor shocks me when a Moslem claims Holocast Denial and Antisemitism are not sins. Their definition of sin and spirituality is Koran based.
On the matter of the morality of Holocaust Denial or Antisemitism, I am only speaking to those Gentiles who consider themselves Christians. The rest of the Gentiles are constrained by civil and criminal laws, and whatever their conscience may prevent. There is no law in the United States against Holocaust Denial and Antisemitism as there is against over acts of terror like flying airplanes into our buildings and murdering our citizens.
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