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To: Last Visible Dog
Well LVD, this is may last post on the subject. Thanks for playing the philosophy game, it's been good. No doubt, this has been a wonderful learning experience. I'll just leave you with my final comments, you are left having the last word if you wish...

You have failed to re-convert me to the radical skeptic school of thought. Not that you didn't try, but that I've already been down that road, and found it lacking. Perhaps you will one day grow tired of it as well. It's fun for a while, but sooner or later we all must grow up, move to the suburbs, and vote Republican.

I know that at this time you are not able to find any certitude in life. That's OK. I've found more than enough for myself. And yes, there are still plenty of uncertainty's out there, but then there always has been.

Certainty is an illusion – that doesn’t mean there are not lots of things that are highly likely. In some context there is value in assuming certainty (in those cases certainty means certain within a closed system).

You keep proving certainty! "Certainty is an illusion..." is a statement of certainty. You may not like the concept of certainty very much, but you certainly like to make use of it to prove there is no certainty...

If you want to be completely consistent and intellectually honest, you have to prove uncertainty by using nothing but uncertain methods. The laws of logic are then off limits, since they are certain. (I don't know anyone who doubts them...) Anytime you go about "proving" or "unproving" anything, you are forced to use certainty, like it or not. So how does one go about "proving" certainty using nothing but uncertain methods?

If certainty is an illusion, then what isn't? If you state it's opposite: "uncertianty is real" you've just stated a certainty, like it or not. And why do you keep making absolute "opinions" like "certainty is an illusion" if there is no certainty? That statement, whether it be fact, opionion or whatever, is self-contradictory. You cannot say "certainty is an illusion" without MEANING "I'm certain that certainty is an illusion." No matter what sort of grammar/deffintion games you play, that statement is absurd at it's face value.

Anyway, you speak of an interesting thing: a "closed" system. Tell me, what systems are there that are truly "open?" All the systems I've ever encountered, be they real or imaginery, are always closed. Oh yes, there are those who play games with computer simulations that are bounded to "infinity." However, outside of those simulations, there are none in the natural (non-computer) world.

Certitude can be intellectual laziness - the turning off the thinking. Sure some things are pretty darn close to certain and adding in the margin of error, it is as good as certain. (of course a margin of error means certainty is not possible but I digress). Not one thing you stated has certitude.

Skepticism ("uncertainty") is just as much an excercise in intellectual laziness as certitude, if not more so. Questioning is not, nor has it ever been the equivalent of true "thinking," just a tool used to think. Once you get your answer for a particular issue, your thinking is done; whether or not that answer results in certainty or uncertainty.

(I can explain a way in which your certainty will be false – and that alone invalidates your certitude or renders it an illusion of certitude).

No, questioning or restating of a certainty does not make it "false." It never has, nor will it ever. All your explainations "prove" is that you are capable of creating explaintions. Yet, for some odd reason, you seem quite certain you have this ability...

The only reason you think they are examples of certainty is you make assumptions but you can never derive certainty from assumptions.

Again, you prove my point. By stating "the only reason you think..." is a statement that's absolute, a certainty. You again leave no room for doubt or uncertainty. Your own statments prove certainty. Whether or not your statements have the property of being "true" is another matter altogether. Certainty and truth are not synonomous, though there are those who mistakenly think that way. Perhaps they should try using skepticsim on their own thoughts...

The "certainty" of things can certianly be proved. Happens everyday by everyday people. I don't have to go forth into tremendous a series of logical proofs to wake-up in the morning and get dressed and make coffe, I just do it, and I'm quite certain I'm the one who's doing it. Whether or not I use logical proofs is besides the point. Strange thing about certitude, it does not need to be proven to be true.

But words and proofs are cheap aren't they? I have an experiment that can prove to you that there is, indeed, certainty in this world...

My experiment is thus: I will take a willing LVD to the top of the Sears Tower in downtown Chicago. He will be bound and gagged, then dangled over the edge of the building in such a fashion that there is a clear path for him to fall to the sidewalk below. At my signal, he will be released.

I predict, based on the certitude of my limited understanding of the law of gravity and physics, that LVD will fall in a downwards motion, reaching an airspeed not exceeding that of termainal velocity, and land smack on the sidewalk below. I further predict, with great certitude, that LVD will then be in a newfound condition that is unfortunately permanent: he will be dead. The point of reference for this experiment will be both myself, and LVD.

I have absolutely no doubts in my mind that my experiment would yield the results I predict if carried out in the method I described, because I relied on certitude in making my predictions.

Anytime you would like to participate in this experiment, and thereby have at least one proven example of certitude, let me know. Otherwise go well and stay well.

973 posted on 03/08/2004 9:50:49 PM PST by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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To: Ronzo
This really has nothing to do with skepticism. This is about false certainty. Certainty is an expression of an absolute – the only answer, the only position, a position that is 100% correct. Absolutes are extremely rare and it could be argued they are nonexistent.

Certainty breeds assumptions and assumptions are the hobgoblins of intellectual laziness.

974 posted on 03/11/2004 8:07:33 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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