[Tamzee]

Wiretaps are wiretaps.... once we've agreed that they are a valid tool of the government, we only have the conditions of their use to debate. Locke said it best... the only reasons for men to gather together as a state are for protection from threats outside of our community and to seek prevention and justice from individuals within that would hurt us or our property.

We wouldn't need governments "were it not for the corruption and viciousness of degenerate men" as Locke so eloquently put it. For governments to perform their essential duty they need to perform surveillance on the bad guys.

[templar]

Wiretaps are wiretaps.... once we've agreed that they are a valid tool of the government, we only have the conditions of their use to debate.

This is exactly the situation the fourth ammendment was intended to address. Read it lately? It places limits on government surveilance, and it does so for a reason.

For governments to perform their essential duty they need to perform surveillance on the bad guys.

This is in dispute? But what constitutes a 'bad guy'? A rather ill defined term you are using here. I would suppose that you think of yourself as being a 'bad guy' are since your financial activities, for example, are being surveiled. Why else would the government have your activities under surveilance unless at you are one of the 'bad guys'? As for me, I am not among the 'bad guys' and find it quite objectionable that everything from my banking transactions to my travel is under constant government surveilance. This is antithetical to both freedom and liberty. If you cannot understand this, then we have nothing in comon.