[exmarine]

Thanks for the Lincoln quote but I did not have that in mind with my comment. By might makes right, I meant that even though there were no legal grounds for FORCED union, the north had the power...hence "might made it right." My point was that union is voluntary and Lincoln made it involuntary. Can you show me in the U.S. Constitution or in the debates over it where it was determined that once a State voluntarily joins the Union, it cannot voluntarily leave it? Under Federalism, States were self-governing. The federal govt. had no power to enforce union. It militates against the bedrock principle of self-government. And today, we see where it has led - Federalism is DEAD - we have an unconstitutional Federal govt. and it all started with Lincoln (tho he could not foresee the consequences of his actions later).

[Poohbah]

Can you show me in the U.S. Constitution or in the debates over it where it was determined that once a State voluntarily joins the Union, it cannot voluntarily leave it?

Well, let's walk through the Constitution.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union...

A "more perfect union" relative to what?

Relative to that made under the Articles of Confederation.

The introduction of the Articles of Confederation are as follows:

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. (Emphasis added.)

Now, let's look at the conclusion of the Articles of Confederation:

And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.

The union was perpetual before the Constitution. The intent of the founding fathers was to ensure that that "perpetual" union was "more perfect."