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To: Markofhumanfeet; betty boop; Nakatu X; Phaedrus
Thank you so much for your reply!

I understand what you are saying and on most all other ancient manuscripts would agree with you, no problem. However, Enoch is an anomaly because Jude quotes it directly and verses and phrases from it are quoted in the New Testament about 100 times. Worse, there are several versions of Enoch. But since it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the copy carbon-dated to 200 b.c. the text begs to be revisited.

There is also the issue of why it was never canonized. here's an excerpt concerning Tertullian (155-160 C.E.):

Tertullian, for example, wrote, "I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason (for rejecting it), let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather's "grace in the sight of God," and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of (his) preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition (of things) made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

"If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit's inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

"But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired". By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, just like all the other (portions) nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude."

At any rate, I find the manuscript quite illuminating; but, certainly, I don't expect others to see it the same way.

I wish I could hang around and discuss this further, but my daughter and son-in-law are due to arrive any minute and will be here for a week. But please post your comments and such and I’ll respond as soon as possible!

437 posted on 01/11/2004 11:51:40 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Dataman; bondserv; Dr. Eckleburg
Did Jesus make any quotes from it?

For the curious, The Book of the Secrets of Enoch lies outside accepted scripture with texts such as The Book of Jubilees, Manichaean Creation Myths, The Secret Book of John, The Apocalypse of Adam, The Gospel of Philip,etc, (All mostly Gnostic texts, and so not accepted by Christianity). There are many more, such as The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, The Paraphase of Shem, Creation of the World and Alien Man, Kabbalah (Roseanne's personal favorite), plus all the histories and narratives, including all the various interpretations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and all the Wisdom Literature and Poetry such as The Odes of Solomon, and The Gospel of Truth and the Valentinian Speculation, again all Gnostic material.

You are either a Christian who believes the Bible is the given Word, or you are a believer in all sorts of esoteric knowledge, which I personally don't have a problem with, as long as you don't proffer the extrabiblical Gnostic gospels as Christian belief.

Enoch was the 8th generation and he walked with God. That pretty well should tell you all you need to know about Enoch

438 posted on 01/11/2004 12:16:48 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: Alamo-Girl
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

From this one quote you can't interpret that Jude is quoting from The Book of the Secrets of Enoch. It could well be just Oral Tradition. It could be from the mysterious Q, or L, or M documents, we don't know. Paul even quotes a Greek prophet, not necessarily implying that the Greek is inspired.

439 posted on 01/11/2004 12:45:35 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: Alamo-Girl; Markofhumanfeet
Consider why the Holy Spirit didn't seem fit to include The Book of Enoch as one of the Canonized books He has preserved for the Body of Christ.

I would lean on His (Holy Spirit) ability to ensure the message God has for His church. The Apostle Paul discussed Greek philosophies on Mars Hill, but I wouldn't take that as endorsement of said philosophies.

If the Holy Spirit desired for the Book of Enoch to be considered "Holy Spirit inspired bread of life", He would have ensured it was on the menu.


My desire is not to be divisive on this forum, because I am reminded that God is not a respecter of men, nor for one person and against another.

Joshua 5:13-14
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

No! What an answer He gave Joshua. Lean not on your own understanding, for your heart is desperately wicked. Feed on the Holy Spirit preserved bread of life, for only He has the power to ensure its preservation. He is sovereign.

Thanks for the ping Mark!

441 posted on 01/11/2004 9:07:37 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical.)
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