Posted on 01/06/2004 12:06:06 AM PST by JohnHuang2
Well, except in this case it's more like putting a bone in front of a dog and she says, "Put it back in your pants, I don't want it."
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself........)
Not actively, and she is just like any other woman who can't fathom the frustration of constant sexual rejection. This is just an area where women have zero empathy for men. Relatively few have ever been turned down for sex by their husbands, and almost none have been continually rejected night after night for years.
For her it is just a little extra attention before she grunts and rolls over to fall asleep. She hardly notices it until it is conspicuously absent, and is completely blind to the disappointment it represents regardless of all efforts to point it out to her.
When she does give in, she feels like he should be satisfied for some weeks, and is completely exasperated with any expression of disappointment while the last episode is anything but a distant memory. In her mind, he is being entirely unreasonable, as she had sex with him just last week. The advances are welcome, his expectation that even a sizable minority be accepted are not.
Not a Dr. Laura fan, eh? What about her bugs you?
ATTACHMENTS by Dr's Tim Clinton and Gary Sibcy
p 11: THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE: ATTACHMENTS
"Although these cases seem different, the recovery of all involved hinges on the same fundamental issue--the way they perceive the answers to these questions:
Are you there for me? Can I count on you? Do you really care about me? Am I worthy of your love and protection? What do I have to do to get your attention, your affection, your heart? These are questions of attachment. When they cannot be answered positively, your psychological, relational, and even spiritual foundations can be shaken. . . .
Relationships define the quality of our lives. If we have safe, secure marriages, we're generally happy and fulfilled; if our marriages are tortured seas of strife and mistrust, we're generally sad, confused, in pain. If our relationships with our children are sensitive, open, and loving, woven together with strong, resilient filaments, they can weather the storms of teen rebellion and those awkward years that follow. But if our relationships with our children are forced and dissonant, each side mistrusting the other, rebellion can become open warfare, and the years that follow can deteriorate into permanent estrangement. Attachment is an overarching system that explains the principles, the rules and the emotions of relationships--how they work and how they don't, how we feel when we're with the ones we love the most.
How about Yours. . . .?
How are the relationships in your life? Do you feel close to your loved ones? Alone? If you're married, do you feel safe and secure, or do you find yourself frequently angry with your spouse, or withdrawn? Have you been married before and find the elements that tainted your first marriage creeping into your present union? Or have you been divorced several times and find you've chosen the same kind of person each time, dooming your marriage before it even began? Do you keep finding yourself in one abusive relationship after another? Or drawn into relationships that you know will turn out to be destructive? How are you with your kids? Feel any distance? . . .
. . .
ATTACHMENT STYLES: HOW THE RELATIONSHIP RULES WORK
. . .
Unthinking confidence in the unfailing accessibility and support of attachment figures is the bedrock on which stable and self-reliant personality is built. --JOHN BOWLBY
RELATIONSHIPS ARE EVERYTHING
It's time to step back. We want you to understand this fascinating model by first giving you a little background on how it was discovered ["The Origins of Attachment Theory: John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth," Developmental Psychology 28 (1992): 759-75, and R. Karen, Becoming Attached: First Relationships and How They Shape Our Capacity to Love (Oxford, England: Oxford University Pres, 1994).] Our basic premise is "Relationships are everything." [Qx emphasis as well as other bold's]
Suppose that it was 1948 in England, and raven-haired, green-eyed, three-year-old Annie Swan was going to a sanitarium for tuberculosis patients. She had a persistent cough and other symptoms that concerned her parents and her doctors.
In those days, conventional wisdom said raising children consisted of keeping them fed, dry, warm, and away from traffic. If you provided these fundamentals, kids would grow up just fine. Nowhere was that attitude more on display than in Annie's parents as they checked her into the sanitarium. The children's ward was a long, narrow room filled with beds protruding from the walls on either side like teeth. Even though Annie would be in the sanitarium for an extended stay, her parents merely dropped her off with a nurse at this ward and left. Their three-year-old daughter wouldn't see them again for about a week and even then for just a short period.
Annie didn't understand being left. The moment her mother turned to leave, Annie's little face twisted, and she began to cry. Her little hands reached out, and she tried to run and grab her mother's skirts. The nurse restrained her and carried her screaming to what would be her bed.
STAGES OF SEPARATION
Suppose that watching this scenario was John Bowlby, an English psychiatrist, and his colleague James Robertson. Bowlby had begun to study children in Annie Swan's situation a few weeks before and was beginning to see patterns. Annie reacted just like the other children had done, and as the weeks and months progressed, he saw two more stages in Annie's behavior that mirrored stages he and his associates had seen in the other children when separated from their mothers. [2nd footnote--see book]
Stage One: Protest
Like "Annie, the moment the children were dropped off in this sterile, cold environment, they began to express real, distressful, even desperate anxiety, then anger at being left. For Annie this meant tears and reaching out to others; it also meant throwing things and stomping around, even lying down and beating her fists and feet on the floor. Toddler rage. And it was nearly universal. Almost every child behaved this way, regardless of the other children around or how the nurses who took care of them reacted. They wanted their mommies, and the nurses, though they were well intentioned and took care of the children's physical needs, were no substitutes.
Stage Two: Despair
Several days after her mother and father left, Annie slipped into what looked like a state of mourning and despair. Dr Bowlby watched her huddle in her bed. When other children tried to play with her, she looked at them with dull eyes then just shook her head listlessly. When her tray of food appeared for breakfast, and again for lunch and dinner, she paid little attention to it. At one point, she lifted her spoon as if it weighted a ton and let it slap on top of her milky cereal. NOw and then, seemingly out of the blue, she would just start to cry. Her puffy little lips would push into a painful frown, and her little eyes would squeeze out huge, wet tears.
As with the anger, this stage of Annie's reaction to being left was like every other child's. They all eventually lapsed into melancholy--their sense of abandonment and loss taking deep root. The nurses, having seen this a thousand times before, paid little attnetion to it. . . .
Stage Three: Detachment
Over the next several months, Annie appeared to be snapping out of it. One day a little girl with a big, floppy Raggedy Ann doll coaxed her from her bed, and they began to play. Although Annie wasn't 100 percent right, she began to show signs of recovery . . . As 'normalcy' eased through the ward, the doctors and nurses alike believed their method of dealing with children had been proven correct once more.
But then Annie's mother showed up for a Sunday afternoon visit. You might think that Annie would grab her favorite artwork and run happily toward her mother, merrily shrieking, 'Mommy! Mommy! Look what I did.' You'd think she'd leap into her mother's arms and after her mother smothered her in kisses, they'd pore over her colorings excitedly. You'd think so. But you'd be wrong.
Not only didn't Annie run to her mom, she did just the opposite. She hardly looked up. And the picture she was coloring at the moment got turned over while others she'd done that day were pushed under the covers--hidden. When Mommy came to her bed and kissed her, Annie actually pulled away. Some might say she was just angry--and she was. But Dr Bowlby saw more than that. He saw that Annie had detached from her mother . . .
. . .
In response, Annie and many others like her developed a calloused self. Repeatedly wounded emotionally, they weren't about to let themselves be hurt again. Instead they developed a system of replacing
things for relationships. Annie realized that if she allowed herself to really want her mom she would be profoundly hurt. So she switched her desire from Mom to things--toys, knickknacks, candy, coloring pencils. She buried the need she had felt for trust, intimacy and closeness. Never again would she willingly reach out to anyone for emotional comfort. Instead she relied only on herself and the material things she now loved.
We believe you can trace the genesis of addition patterns in our lives back to this process, known as the 'replacement defense.'
Not only did Annie sue the replacement defense, but she also learned how to 'wall off' her emotions. She no longer expressed or acknowledged her feelings to anyone, including herself [Qx: This is a very common source of men as well as women not being able to abandon to the pleasures and intimacy of sexual contact]. This helped her not to feel so vulnerable and helpless.
. . .
ATTACHMENT BEHAVIORAL SYSTEM
Is attachment figure
sufficiently near,
responsive and attuned?
If yes, [then] Child feels security, love, self-confidence [yielding a child who]
is playful, smiling, exploring, sociable, showing a basic sense of trust of self and of others.
IF NO [then the child experiences]
Fear, Anxiety [which results in the child then]
[using] attachment-seeking behaviors: visual checking, signaling a need for contact, pleading, clinging [Qx: As adults, clinging can take a variety of forms. And, most men don't relate well to it but men can also be clingy--and no woman wants her PROTECTOR clinging to her for everything] etc.
[When this proves ineffective, the child then becomes]
Defensive
This will yield (A):
[a] child [who] is ambivalent, alternately angry and clinging, showing a basic distrust of self. [Qx: Many spouses demonstrate the same things].
[OR this will yield (B) a child]:
who [is] avoidant, watchful, wary, showing a basic distrust of others [Qx: This can be particularly pronounced in a spouse's death grip on money and other control factors.]
Attachment Styles: How We Develop Our Core Beliefs
It is easy to observe the attachment behavioral system at work in the first few years of a child's life. Over time, the many interactions between a mother and her infant become internalized by the child and form what Bowlby called the internal working model, [footnote 5--see book] or relationship rules. We simply call this system an attachment style. It's a mental model, a set of basic assumptions, or core beliefs, about yourself and others. . . . Later in the book, we'll go into these styles in greater detail so you can identify your own personal style and learn how the different styles interact.
The first set of core beliefs, or relationship rules, form the self dimension. It centers around two critical questions:
[bold, color emphasis--Qx]
The second set of beliefs form the other dimension. It also centers around two important questions:
Based on your responses to each of set of questions above, your sense of self is either positive or negative. Likewise, your sense of other is also either positive or negative. By combining the four possible combinations of self and other dimensions, a four-category grid . . . emerges. [6footnote--see book]
[UPPER LEFT QUADRANT]:
Secure Attachment Style
POSITIVE SELF/POSITIVE OTHER
[LOWER LEFT QUADRANT]:
Ambivalent Attachment Style
NEGATIVE SELF/POSITIVE OTHER
[UPPER RIGHT QUADRANT]:
Avoidant Attachment Style
POSITIVE SELF/NEGATIVE OTHER
[LOWER RIGHT QUADRANT]:
Disorganized Attachment Style
NEGATIVE SELF/NEGATIVE OTHER
[The book's discussion of these is extremely excellent]
p31:
While the emphasis of this chapter is on Mom, we believe Dad has a prfound attachment influence too. While many dads these days are stepping up and getting invested in their kids, without question the grave social ill of our day is the absence of Dad from the home--and the effects are showing.
The way dad develops a secure attachment to his kids is different than the way a mom does. According to noted "fathering" expert William Pollack, "Fathers are not male mothers." [footnote see book]
Dad differ in that they have a more action-oriented love and thus need to play more with their kids. Roughhousing (pillow fights, wrestling), tag, hide-and-seek, kickball, hunting, and fishing are just a few examples of what we mean. When a dad connects with his child in this way, the bonds of love are formed. He becomes a harbor of safety, someone who is warm and can be trusted, especially in times of trouble.
ATTACHMENT INJURIES GRID [sorry my html coding is so clutsy or I'd have done this better]:
UPPER LEFT--SHORT DURATION, MINOR INJURY:
Childhood Attachment Injury:
--
**Parent shows up late to pick up child
**Parent is upset, tense, and stressful because of work stress.
**Parent has flue and istemporarily unavilable to the child
[space]
[space]
[space]
Adult Attachment Injury:
--
**Often shows up late for work or appointments.
**Occasionally fails to keep a promise
**Spouse goes out of town for week.
LOWER LEFT: SHORT DURATION; SEVERE INJURY: --
Childhood Attachment Injury:
--
**Parent goes to hospital for a week.
**Child is sick, and parent is unavailable.
**Child gets lost for brief period of time.
[space]
[space]
[space]
Adult Attachment Injury:
--
**An extramarital affair
**Intense arguments involving verbal abuse.
**Physical or sexual abuse that occurs more than one or two times
**Complicated grief after loss of parent(s).
[ASSOCIATED FEATURES OF AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT STYLE from p 68]:
The Narcissist or Inflated False Self:
* seeks excessive praise from others
* tends to be arrogant and condescending and portrays an inflated sense of self-worth
* fantasizes about fame, fortune, and power
* is very sensitive to criticism and can respond with intense anger
* takes an 'I'm-first-and-everyone-else-comes-later' attitude
* manipulates others to achieve his or her own ends
* envies others' success
* associates 'special' people and engages in lots of name-dropping
* shows poor empathy for others
* is externally focused, with a 'you-are-what-you-have' attitude
The Compulsive Perfectionist:
* pays excessive attention to details, order, and organization
* controls others, frequently using guilt
* demands that self and others submit to rigid, moralistic rules with lots of dos and don'ts
* has difficulty sharing; viewed by others as stingy of time, money and resources
* is uncomfortable with emotions; very constricted
* is uncomfortable with physical touch
* has difficulty displaying affection toward others
* tends to procrastinate because of such high standards for performance
* is reluctant to delegate tasks because others are viewed as incompetent [footnote--see book]
UPPER RIGHT: LONG DURATION; MINOR INJURY: --
Childhood Attachment Injury:
**Insensitive parenting.
**Caregiver is constantly unavilable, not there for the little things.
**Child withdraws emotionally when daycare becomes necessary as parent goes back to work.
**Parent is never there for the big things: first baseball game, school play, karate practice, dance lessons, etc.
**Parents divorce amicably without post-divorce conflict.
[space]
Adult Attachment Injury:
--
**Spouse works too much to avoid home life.
**Emotionally distant
**Demonstrates ongoing insensitivity.
**Uninvolved in family life.
DEPENDANCY: FEATURES ASSOICIATED WITH AMBIVALENT ATTACHMENT STYLE:
* I am/feel incompetent.
* I struggle to handle things on my own.
* I need a strong protector to care and do things for me.
* This is a cold and dangerous world where people will hurt me and disaster will strike at any time, so I need to play it safe and stay close to those who are stronger and wiser.
p 84:
The fear of rejection can breed some pretty destructive behaviors and feelings in those with an ambivalent attachment style:
* very low self-confidence
* fear of making decisions, looking to others to make major life decisions
* rarely expressing disagreement with others
* frequently seeking assurance, nurturance, and support
* feeling obsessed with the fear of being left alone (for example, the fear that your spouse will die suddenly)
* feeling helpless when alone
* desperately seeking new relationships when others end
* frequently subordinating themselves to others
* perpetually seeking advice
* often working below their ability level
* accepting unpleasant tasks to please others
* having a tendency to express distress through medically unexplainable physical symptoms rather than emotional pain (For example, they may develop headaches while doing unpleasant activities rather than saying, "No, I can't do this. It's too stressful.") [footnote--see book]
LOWER RIGHT: LONG DURATION; SEVERE INJURY: --
Childhood Attachment Inury: --
**Abusive parenting.
**Parents involved in abusive marriage.
**Parents divorce with ongoing conflict post-divorce--e.g., cutody battles.
**Sibling gets chronic illness such as diabetes, stealing parents' time and attention
[space]
[space]
Adult Attachment Injury: --
**Marriage ends in divorce.
**Gets involved in frequent extramarital affairs
**Chronic domestic violence
**Chronic addictive behavior
**Long-term life-threatening illness
p. 50
COMPARISON OF ATTACHMENT STYLES:
UPPER LEFT: SECURE ATTACHMENT STYLE: --
Self Dimension
**I am worthy of love.
**I am capable of getting the love and support I need.
[space]
[space]
Other Dimension:
**Others are willing and able to love me.
LOWER LEFT: AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT STYLE: --
Self Dimension:
**I am worthy of love.
**I am capable of getting the love and support I need.
[space]
Other Dimension:
**Others are either unwilling or incapable of loving me. **Others are not trustworthy; they are unreliable when it comes to meeting my needs.
UPPER RIGHT: AMBIVALENT ATTACHMENT STYLE: --
Self Dimension: --
**I am not worthy of love.
**I am not capable of getting the love I need without being angry and clingy.
[space]
Other Dimension:
--
**Others are capable of meeting my needs but might not do so because of my flaws.
**Others are trustworthy and reliable but might abandon me because of my worthlessness.
LOWER RIGHT: DISORGANIZED ATTACHMENT STYLE: --
Self Dimension:
--
**I am not worthy of love.
**I am not capable of getting the love I need without being angry and clingy.
[space]
Other Dimension: --
**Others are unable to meet my needs.
**Others are not trustworthy or reliable.
**Others are abusive, and I deserve it.
[An important discussion of]
The Power of Revlection
s on page 108 . . . part of which says]
* The ability to know and understand feelings helps us manage our intense emotions. We know what our emotions are, and we understand that they're only emotions; they don't have to take our lives.
-------------------------
[The rest of the DISORGANIZED ATTACHMENT STYLE is very important but I leave you to the book for that. I believe the book is worth anyone's time and money. All of us at least have people in our network who would benefit from the instructions for overcoming these problems.]
I plan to be away from the computer to the pottery studio this afternoon. I may be available for some responses this evening. I have proofed most of this quickly. Sorry for anything I missed.
Blessings in your relationship growing . . .
True.
"Couldn't hurt." Yeah. You do that. And don't forget to duck when she reciprocates with a "gift" of her own -- a hard bound version of "Don't Be A Jerk -- How To Get Your Wife To Do Nice Things For You By Doing Nice Things For Her."
It goes both ways, folks.
You're absolutely right about that. Criticising a gift -- ANY gift is just plain bad manners.
That said, the fact that she said "for once" would indicate that you never once got her flowers from a flower shop, but I don't know your budget or your situation, or the circumstances under which the flowers were given. That might have been a (much too direct) hint for you to put more thought and planning into your gift giving, but I still think that the way she said what she said was not very thoughtful.
There might be an evolutionary reason for that. It may be a disadvantage for a guy to become too emotionally attuned to the feelings of somebody if he may have a need to put an ax blade thru the guys forehead
I would have asked her: what do you do to try to communicate that you want it? Perhaps she needs to be more obvious in her hinting. It's like the old advise to women: "Don't drop hints. TELL us. Better yet, tap us on the head, make sure you got our full attention, THEN tell us, very explicitly, what you want"
Of course, it might be that she doesnt want it, and was just saying that to make you wrong
What I've noticed over the years is a lot depends on HER attitude towards the guy. With most women, a thorough looking over by a pot-bellied plumber will NOT trigger the same emotional response as the exact same looking over by Brad Pitt. Women want to be looked at ONLY by guys that THEY find interesting.
Oh man, sometimes I hate being psychic. :D
But, you're probably better off finding out now that she's super-high-maintenance.
I'm exactly the opposite, it would bother me to know a guy was spending seventy bucks on cut flowers at the florist, when perfectly adequate ones are available for $10 or $15 up on 86th St. I'd rather a guy dropped seventy bucks in a restaurant than in a florist, personally.
Anyway, if you're ever considering jewelry for a future girlfriend, you could do worse than consult some of us Freeper ladies. We can help.
I do agree it's a cultural thing. With many relationships, it's a problem of self-esteem -- a problem of ENTIRELY TOO MUCH self-esteem, in the sense of self-esteem being defined as "what you expect that you are worth". When somebody gets more than she expects, something she was prepared to work hard to get, she feels overjoyed. When somebody gets less than she expects, she feels resentful and cheated.
I've found this to be true in office politics. Even worse, if a guy gets a woman ticked-off at him at work, ALL her friends well gang up on him and not want to cooperate with him in the work environment. Ever
When the woman is going "Oh God, Oh God", you can safely guess she's having a good time.
When she starts praying in tongues, you can be SURE she's having a VERY good time
I think that is what the issue is. I have told her many times, please tell me if and when you want to have sex. Never happens.
PS: I heartily agree with your user name.
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