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For Vietnam Vet Anthony Zinni, Another War on Shaky Territory
Washington Post ^ | Tuesday, December 23, 2003; | Thomas E. Ricks

Posted on 12/25/2003 2:17:29 PM PST by SUSSA

Edited on 12/26/2003 7:55:16 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator. [history]

Anthony C. Zinni's opposition to U.S. policy on Iraq began on the monsoon-ridden afternoon of Nov. 3, 1970. He was lying on a Vietnamese mountainside west of Da Nang, three rounds from an AK-47 assault rifle in his side and back. He could feel his lifeblood seeping into the ground as he slipped in and out of consciousness.

He had plenty of time to think in the following months while recuperating in a military hospital in Hawaii. Among other things, he promised himself that, "If I'm ever in a position to say what I think is right, I will. . . . I don't care what happens to my career."

That time has arrived.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: iraq; rebuildingiraq; war
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To: CWOJackson
..with a military tradition that includes Gallipoli...

Good ol' Skipper.

Your pus keeps flowing, but the abscess never drains.

101 posted on 12/26/2003 5:45:00 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: dennisw
Gallipoli joke, Dennis. Yuk it up, bud.
102 posted on 12/26/2003 5:45:54 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Puss? Drained?

Are you responding to my question about your government down there or your brilliant military history of allowing incompetent English generals to slaughter your soldiers and sailors?

So remind me again. What year was it that you people actually allowed a representative of the English monarchy to dissolve your elected government. Wasn't that in the 1980's?

103 posted on 12/26/2003 5:48:15 AM PST by CWOJackson
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Gallipoli a joke? So how many thousands of ANZACs did your brilliant military leaders allow the British generals to slaughter needlessly day-after-day?

We are discussing generalship here aren't we?

104 posted on 12/26/2003 5:51:05 AM PST by CWOJackson
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To: SUSSA
You may be right. I'm not saying he is right or wrong. I'm just saying his opinion is worth listening to.

So you believe the position he espouses is deliberately ingnored by Bush, et. al.? Might there be more than one way to approach and accomplish our objectives? Do you think some actions might have short term advantages but are long term losers -- pyrric positions as it were?

105 posted on 12/26/2003 6:26:14 AM PST by laredo44 (liberty is not the problem)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Gallipoli joke, Dennis. Yuk it up, bud........

I saw the Mel movie and the place is in Turkey. I honor you pommie lot helping out England in WW1. You gave up guns along with the Canadians but you still have fighting spirit. Mostly because China looms off shore and so does Indonesia/Malaysia. Both covet Aussie "living room" (lebensraum) for their teeming masses but the Islamics more so
106 posted on 12/26/2003 8:06:44 AM PST by dennisw
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To: CWOJackson
The ANZACs were part of a British-led invasion force, Skip. They followed their orders. BTW, did you mock the Gallipoli dead to score points, when you were in New Zealand?
107 posted on 12/26/2003 3:00:39 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: dennisw
Thanks for the clarification, although your facts are wrong. We did not 'give up our guns', and Indonesia is losing, not gaining, territory. Cheers, Byron
108 posted on 12/26/2003 3:01:52 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
We did not 'give up our guns', and Indonesia is losing, not gaining, territory. Cheers, Byron

Your gubbermint seized your guns and now your croc hunters must make do with their children's toy bow and arrows.

 

109 posted on 12/26/2003 3:31:20 PM PST by dennisw
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To: dennisw
That's incorrect, Dennis. In my state of New South Wales, there's over a million registered guns. Probably just as many, unregistered. Cheers, By
110 posted on 12/26/2003 3:35:52 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
They followed their orders. BTW, did you mock the Gallipoli dead to score points, when you were in New Zealand?

Yes, they followed their orders from their ENGLISH LORDS AND MASTERS and their own officers did absolutely nothing to stop the slaughter...as for the New Zealanders, naw, I wouldn't mock them, they actually do have some spine and don't continue to bow down to English monarchs.

111 posted on 12/27/2003 2:48:27 AM PST by CWOJackson
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To: gatorbait
In the rush to engage in ad hominen attack, the responses to my post on Gen. Zinni presume much. They assume that I agree with his assessment and conclusion. In fact, all I counsel is to not disregard what he says in the crush to be an apolgist for a foreign/military polciy that is being subjected to rational and thoughtful challenge.

My own opinion, while of no significance in the larger picture, is that the offensive operation was proper and timely. The after action occupation has been a victim of a force structure that is inconsistent with the mission to be performed. The SecDef's "transformation" has a sound philosophical underpinning but is too heavily influenced by those movers & shakers in the defense industrial complex who have serious vested interests in the changes on the horizon.

A rote condemnation of critics of policy like Clark, Zinni, Colonel Pat Hayes, and the others is a confession of abdicating the critical thought process expected of educated and thinking persons to those in the Administration's spin machine.

112 posted on 12/27/2003 7:51:00 AM PST by middie
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To: middie
O Captain, I never disregarded his wise counsel.I am more interested in his motives.Frankly,I am well disturbed by his recent statements and those of Clark who has had more twists than a carnival pretzel .
I agree that there have been some mixed signals, but , frankly, I think Zinni has joined the chorus of former officers still wanting to be relevant.He also has joined the Admiral Crowe club of giving aid and comfort to a political party hellbent on the destruction of the institutions he is alleged to hold dear.
No spin, I just think Zinni must realize what's in his FBI file.
113 posted on 12/27/2003 1:43:34 PM PST by gatorbait (Yesterday, today and tomorrow......The United States Army)
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To: CWOJackson
...they followed their orders from their ENGLISH LORDS AND MASTERS and their own officers did absolutely nothing to stop the slaughter...as for the New Zealanders, naw, I wouldn't mock them...

You haven't a clue, blowhard.

The Australians and New Zealanders followed orders given by their senior officers, which is what you're accusing Zinni of not doing. Making you a hypocrite as well as a coward, because the Kiwis were in the same boat as the Aussies. You didn't criticise their Gallipoli dead when you were in NZ, because you wouldn't have got home with any teeth left. Only on the Internet do your kind feel safe enough to slur dead heroes.

114 posted on 12/27/2003 3:04:26 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
"The Australians and New Zealanders followed orders given by their senior officers, which is what you're accusing Zinni of not doing."

Actually the senior Australian officers passed on the orders given to them by their English lords, and repeatedly ordered their men into the slaughter...never once standing up to their English lords.

And as I mentioned before, I actually admire the New Zealanders...they don't grovel to the representative of a foreign monarch...you know, they way you people allowed your English overseeing to dissolve your elected government with nary a whimper. And we're talking less then 20 years ago...I doubt the French would have even put up with that.

As for slurring your dead heros...dude, you're the folks who needlessly made them dead for the English. That's the slur.

115 posted on 12/27/2003 3:59:14 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson
...actually the senior Australian officers passed on the orders given to them by their English lords, and repeatedly ordered their men into the slaughter...never once standing up to their English lords...

Another lie.

The Aussies and the Kiwis followed the orders of their senior officers, at Gallipoli- despite protests, particularly at the Nek and Lone Pine. it was a British-led invasion, in the same way Iraq was an American-led invasion. You have no idea what you're talking about, but you feel safe making these cowardly slurs on our dead, from behind your computer. I find it revealing of your hypocrisy that you accuse Zinni of not following orders, and the Aussies of following orders. For a lonely shut-in like yourself, who logged onto FR early on Christmas Day for hours of insulting fellow Freepers, I guess any slur's a good one? What you don't seem to realise is that to insult our glorious dead, in order to get at me, says more about the sickness in your soul than anything they did.

116 posted on 12/27/2003 4:07:58 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Your military prowess is showing. Gallipoli was not a British led invasion...it was nothing more then a senseless slaughter of Aussie and New Zealand troops at the hands of incompetent English officers and their own gutless officers.

There is no comparison between senselessly bowing down and dying, or having your own people slaughtered, for incompetent foreign leaders and the U.S. operations in Iraq.

Zinni is not disobeying orders, nor is he leading troops into battle, nor is he groveling at the feet of a foreign monarch. He is an American officer talking out of turn.

Of course these things are difficult to understand in your position...we threw off our English lords over 200 years ago.

117 posted on 12/27/2003 4:14:17 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson
...Gallipoli was not a British led invasion...

Gallipoli was a British-led invasion. Your ignorance on that is only matched by your hypocrisy on blaming the Aussies and Kiwis for not following their orders there, while simultaneously saying Zinni should follow his orders. But both personality traits are overwhelmed by your cowardice, because you didn't have the guts to express your contempt about the ANZACs while actually in New Zealand. You save that for when you're back home, in front of your computer.

118 posted on 12/27/2003 4:20:43 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Let's try this very slowing for the logic impaired.

"Gallipoli was a British-led invasion."

Wrong, it was a British lead senseless slaughter.

"Your ignorance on that is only matched by your hypocrisy on blaming the Aussies and Kiwis for not following their orders there, while simultaneously saying Zinni should follow his orders."

You are very confused. The ANZACS DID follow their orders. They repeatedly charged off to slaugher and death. Their own senior officers followed the orders of their incompetent English general and watched their men charge off to slaughter repeatedly.

I never said Zinni didn't follow orders...he is speaking out of turn and place, and in a political situation, not a combat situation.

"But both personality traits are overwhelmed by your cowardice, because you didn't have the guts to express your contempt about the ANZACs while actually in New Zealand."

You would be surprised. Many New Zealanders are angry over the memory of Gallipoli and yes, I've discussed it with my peers there more then once. Now you Aussies on the other hand are an unusual people. Here in America we celebrate people like Lewis and Clark, who lead a very small expedition successfully across this continent.

While I can't recall their names, you Aussie celebrate the memory of people and their expeditions of discovery that ended in utter disaster (I can look their names up if you wish...interesting reading though, hugh expeditions, many months to prepare, all with the same results...dead fools celebrated today). Perhaps that is why you consider Gallipoli something to be proud of.

119 posted on 12/27/2003 4:30:52 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: SUSSA
According to most of the embedded TV studio arm chair generals from the media we are still fighting to reach Baghdad. There would be millions of refuges. Turkey would attack the Kurds. The casualties was supposed to top 50k. We were never going to take Baghdad without zillions more troops, yadda yadda yadda.

Were they wrong?
Times change. Peoples' recollections are mired in the past.
120 posted on 12/27/2003 4:37:43 PM PST by snooker
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