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To: elli1
You have responded to only a small part of my post

I am sure that you have read of the burden that these people put on our society, not to mention the fact that they are forcing us to change our societal ways. I say there is a limit and we have surpassed it. It is time to take back control of our society or we will be overun like a wounded animal in the forest that is consumed by the forest's scavengers.

You fail to respond to the facts presented time and again that illegal immigrants are a drain on our society. They cannot, due to lack of education or the fact that most of them are unskilled labor, raise the level of our society. It is impossible. Please don't give me the gardener/pool cleaner arguement. I don't own a pool and I do my own gardening.

I work with illegals because my company will only hire people that are willing to work for next to nothing. Their standard of living is increased ten fold working for just above minimum wage. While an America, who follows the laws of our country, could not make it at the same wage. Hence, they would experience a drop in their standard of living.

People like you tend to ignore the dilution of our society by the incursion of these criminals. Why?

When can we as a country, exercise our right to say that people cannot come here unabated?

How can you support criminal behavior as you do? You post many arguements justifying illegal behavior. When do we as a country get to say "enough"?

As for the arguement that we are a nation of immigrants - while that may be true do we not then have the right to say - now- it is time to stop it? If not, then, why not?

198 posted on 12/26/2003 12:21:49 PM PST by raybbr
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To: raybbr
You fail to respond to the facts presented time and again that illegal immigrants are a drain on our society. They cannot, due to lack of education or the fact that most of them are unskilled labor, raise the level of our society. It is impossible.

I don't accept as fact that illegal immigrants are a net drain on our society. To start with, we don't have any idea how many are really here, much less who they are & what they do. It is possible to calculate how much the loser/ lounger element of the illegal immigrant population is costing because that's a matter of record. What is impossible to quantify is the value added component because so much of it is part of the underground economy, cash-only, off the books, lost in the paper trail of contractor/ sub-contractor, false papers, working under false/ stolen/ deceased's SS numbers.... All of this occurs & occurs on a regular basis and it is, I repeat, impossible to quantify. We can reasonably estimate what the losers cost the American taxpayer, but we have no real idea of what the illegal immigrant worker contributes to this society. You cannot reach a reasonable conclusion when you can see only one side of the balance sheet.

It's reasonable to state that probably most of recently arrived illegal laborers are unskilled. It's also reasonable that most of them come here w/ the desire to learn skills and that many do become skilled labor, especially those who enter the construction trades.

People like you tend to ignore the dilution of our society by the incursion of these criminals.

What do you mean by dilution of our society?

I presume from context that you consider all illegal immigrants to be criminals. I do not. While crossing the border w/o proper papers is technically illegal, I don't consider a guy who enters the country illegally in order to find work, who holds down a job so he can feed & clothe his family to be a criminal. Criminal is a term that I reserve for more onerous behavior like burglary, rape, murder. In that context, I most certainly don't support criminal behavior.

What I do believe is that immigrants have an obligation to integrate into our society & learn American English. A common language is central to a cohesive society. At the same time, I think that all Americans should learn a second language because it just plain will make us more educated. What I believe is that an Us Against Them attitude is counter-productive to creating a cohesive society. Immigrants have an obligation to intergrate & society has an obligation to meet them halfway. Doing so enriches our society. Real criminals belong in jail or in front of a firing squad.

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but, that said, I don't think any one person is arguing to keep the broken system we have in place. Each & every one of us recognizes that there is a real & true problem and the points of disagreement are based on different opinions of how to address the problem. We're all saying we've had enough, let's do something about it. A few of us, myself included, prefer a proactive solution that acknowledges that immigrant workers can be productive additions to society rather than a strictly reactive & impossible proposal to ship them them all back to their countries of origin. We are arguing against the nanny/ welfare/ cradle to grave mentality that is encouraging the worst of the lot to flood the borders. Stop the handouts & those who are not willing to be productive members of American society will not have the inducements to come here. Quit looking to Mexico for the solution because, for darned sure, Fox doesn't want the losers back. He's glad to be rid of them.

As for the arguement that we are a nation of immigrants - while that may be true do we not then have the right to say - now- it is time to stop it? If not, then, why not?

Certainly, you, me, we have the right to say, to demand that we stop it. But the larger question is: Do we really want to stop it? Consider for a moment that an expanding population is fuel for growth. And then consider this fact: The total fertility rate in the United States (the number of children born in a lifetime to a woman) has dropped below replacement level. The current TFR in the United States is 2.01...slightly over 2 live births per. Replacement level is considered to be 2.1 (owing to infant mortality). And this is a continuation of a downward trend. Looking to Europe, we can see a brewing crisis there because of declining birth/ fertility rates that are well below the replacement level. Consider that the TFR in Italy is at 1.2% and that country is offering financial inducements for people to have children. A chief reason as to why the US TFR has not dropped as precipitiously as Europe's is because of immigration--and yet, we have crossed the threshold of not quite producing children at a population replacement level and the trend is towards fewer & fewer births. The reason that the United States is not losing population is because of longer life expectancies & immigration.

204 posted on 12/26/2003 2:17:48 PM PST by elli1
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