Replies

Very interesting, commentary, Race. I think that is the way I heard the conception date explained by Pastor Arnold Murray a couple of years ago, but I didn't have a written transcript. Thanks!

Have you ever seen THIS theory of Christ's birthdate being not on Tishri 15, but on Tishri 1 Rosh Hashanaah, THE DAY OF TRUMPETS, (which fell on SEPTEMBER 11, 3 B.C.), from David Chilton's DAYS OF VENGEANCE (an exposition of the book of Revelation). Perhaps the two-week difference can be explained by the fact that Mary was heavy with child http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk002.html#5 . What must have been a grueling trip for a woman in her condition, would most likely have brought the birth to fruition a tad early by our standards, but right on schedule, according to God's plan. For, reading again in Luke 2, if I am interpreting this correctly, it appears that Mary was confined for seven days, according to the law, and the child was circumcised IN BETHLEHEM [which means literally 'house of Bread', fitting for 'The Bread of Life'] on the EIGHTH DAY, and THEN was taken to JERUSALEM to be presented to the LORD during the FEAST OF TABERNACLES, thus fulfilling both the DAY OF TRUMPETS AND the FEAST OF TABERNACLES. I have added links to many of the Bible passages mentioned, and in addition, links to the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, which will show historical precedences and progression of God's word through the ages. For any I missed, find here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html . I would advise that one read the main part of the text through first, then come back and read the links and comments in brackets, [ ]'s, for further understanding. Or maybe you would find it easier to read it first at the source, then come back and read this post. [ Days of Vengeance, Rev. 1-2. See pages 326 through 329 http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/dcdv/dcdv.html ]. It took me a couple of readings before I got all of it. I got goosebumps this morning when I realized what he was saying about even the order of the stars coinciding with the order of the tribes around the tabernacle. Please enjoy.

[ Luk 2:21 And WHEN EIGHT DAYS WERE ACCOMPLISHED FOR THE CIRCUMCISING of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/21.html

Luk 2:22 And WHEN THE DAYS OF HER PURIFICATION ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES WERE ACCOMPLISHED, THEY BROUGHT HIM TO JERUSALEM, TO PRESENT [HIM] TO THE LORD;
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/22.html

Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/23.html

Luk 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/30.html

Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/32.html

Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/34.html

Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/35.html

Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

Luk 2:37 And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/37.html

Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/38.html

Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/39.html ]

*** Now, from DAYS OF VENGEANCE, by David Chilton:

THE HOLY WAR Revelation 12:1-3

[ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev012.html#top ]

p. 326-329

[ Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/12/1.html

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/12/2.html ]

PART FOUR: THE SEVEN TRUMPETS

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As the pregnant woman approaches the time to give birth, She writhes and cries out in her labor pains, Thus were we before Thee, O LORD. (Isa. 26:17 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa026.html#17 )

As prophetic revelation progresses in Scripture, it becomes increasingly clear that the Old Covenant Church is laboring to bring forth the Christ (cf. Mic. 4:9-5:9
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#9 and
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mic/4/9.html and
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mic/4/10.html and
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic005.html and
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mic/5/9.html ): He was the basic promise of the Abrahamic covenant. This is what Israel was waiting for, being in labor and pain throughout her existence. This is the most essential meaning of Israel’s history, apart from which it has no significance: the bearing of the Manchild (cf. John 16:20-22
[ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn016.html#20 and http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/16/20.html and http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/16/21.html and http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/16/22.html ], the Savior of the world. From the protevangelium to the Flood, from the Abrahamic Covenant through the slavery in Egypt, the Exodus, the settling of Canaan, the Babylonian Captivity, the return from exile, and the suffering under the Greeks and the Remans, Israel was laboring to give birth to the Christ, to bring in the Messianic age.

In the midst of the Church’s struggles, therefore, she cried out. This verb (Icrazd) has special significance in Scripture, generally being used for an oath or the solemn proclamation of God’s revelation; it is often used of God’s servants speaking in the face of opposition. 7 Here it has reference to the Church’s official declaration of the Word of God, the prophecy that she uttered as she travailed in birth. This was the essence of all prophetic revelation, to bear witness to the Christ (John 5:39, 45-46; Luke 24:25-27; Acts 3:24; 13:27).

[ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#39
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/5/39.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/5/45.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/5/46.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#25
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/24/25.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/24/26.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/24/27.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act003.html#24
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Act/3/24.html

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act013.html#27 Read the entire chapter. The desciples fasted and prayed before Paul and Barnabas were sent out on the following mission. Note the sorcerer Barjesus, which means son of Jesus; Elymas was his Arab name. He was evil incarnate:

Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

After Barjesus is restrained, they go on their way to announce the kingdom being taken from the false shepherds and given to the gentiles, to those who would 'bear fruit' for the kingdom of God. After re-capping the history of the Israelites, we read this:

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. ]

It is important to recognize the relationship of all this to the very obvious astronomical symbolism in the text. The word St. John uses for sign was the term used in the ancient world to describe the constellations of the Zodiac; St. John’s model for this vision of the Church is the constellation of Virgo, which does have a “crown” of twelve stars. 8 It seems likely that the

p. 327
twelve stars also represent the twelve signs of the Zodiac, from ancient times regarded as symbols of the twelve tribes of Israel; in Joseph’s famous dream his father, mother, and the twelve tribes were symbolized by the sun, the moon, and twelve stars or constellations (Gen. 37:9 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen037.html#9 Note also the sons of the bondwoman who seek to kill the heir.). 9 We have already seen how the divine arrangement of Israel’s tribes around the Tabernacle (Num. 2 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Num/Num002.html#top ) corresponded to the zodiacal order of the constellations. 10 The Seventh Trumpet of 11:15 brought us to Rosh Hashanah: the Day of Trumpets, the first day of the seventh month, the first day of the new year, the Day of the enthronement of the King of kings in the New Creation. The statement that Virgo is “crowned” with the twelve constellations, therefore, “means that she is the one among the twelve who reigns at the time,” i.e. during the seventh month, just as “the Scorpion’s claws seem about to catch the Virgin.” 11 In terms of astral symbolism, therefore, the birth of the Messiah takes place on the Day of Trumpets.

It is interesting that by pursuing several lines of very convincing evidence, Prof. Ernest Martin carefully and painstakingly narrows down the probable date of Christ’s birth to sometime in September, 3 B.C. 12 Martin then adds the icing to the cake: “In the period of Christ’s birth, the Sun entered the head-position of the Woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the Apostle John saw the scene when the Sun ‘clothes’ or ‘adorns’ the Woman. This surely indi- cates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied of the Woman — between the neck and knees. (The sun could hardly be said to ‘clothe’ the Woman if it were situated in her face or near her feet.)

“The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to ‘clothe’ this celestial Woman (to be mid-bodied) is when it was

p. 328
located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This ‘clothing’ of the Woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20-degree spread could indicate the general time when Christ was born. In 3 B. C., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Christ with the period when the Sun is mid-bodied to the Woman, then Christ would have had to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi (who were astrologers), this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born — especially if he were to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born of a virgin. . . .

“But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Christ’s birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision could pinpoint the nativity to within a day – perhaps to an hour period or less. This may seem absurd, but it is entirely possible. “The key is the Moon.

The apostle said it was located ‘under her feet.’ What does the word ‘under’ signify in this case? Does it mean the Woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Christ this would have been be- tween about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7-degree arc. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid- bodied to Virgo. *** In the year 3 B. C., these two factors came to precise agreement for less than two hours, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, on September 11. The relationship began about 6:15 P.M. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 P.M. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that this could have taken place.”lJ

p. 329
***An added bonus: SUNDOWN ON SEPTEMBER 11, 3 B. C., WAS THE BEGINNING OF TISHRI 1 in the Jewish calendar – ROSH HASHANASH, THE DAY OF TRUMPETS! 14 Martin summarizes: “THE CENTRAL THEME OF THE DAY OF TRUMPETS IS CLEARLY THAT OF ENTHRONEMENT OF THE GREAT KING OF KINGS. This was the general understanding of the day in early Judaism – and it certainly is that of the New Testament. In Revelation 11:15 ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html#15 and http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/11/15.html ) the seventh angel sounds his ‘LAST TRUMP’ and THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD BECOME [BECAME] THOSE OF CHRIST. This happens at a time when a woman is seen in heaven with twelve stars around her head and the Sun mid-bodied to her, with the Moon under her feet. This is clearly a New Moon scene for the Day of Trumpets.” 15......
___________________________________________________________
Footnotes:

7. See, e.g., Matt. 27:50; Mark 3:11; 5:7; 9:24; 10:48; 15:13; John 1:15; 7:28; 12:13, 44; Acts 19:28, 32, 34; Rem. 9:27; Gal. 4:6; James 5:4; and see its use especially in Revelation: 6:10; 7:2, 10; 10:3; 14:15; 18:2,18-19; 19:17. 8. The twelve stars are: “(l) Pi, (2) Nu, (3) Beta (near the ecliptic), (4) Sigma, (5) Chi, (6) Iota – these six stars form the southern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. Then there are (7) Theta, (8) Star 60, (9) Delta, (10) Star 93, (11) Beta (the second magnitude star), (12) Omicron – these last six form the northern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. All these stars are visible ones that could have been seen by observers.” Ernest L. Martin, The Birth of Christ Recalculated (Pasadena, CA: Foundation for Biblical Research, 2nd cd., 1980), p. 159.

9. See Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, iii.vii.7, where he explains the twelve stones in the high priest’s breastplate, representing the twelve tribes of Israel (Ex. 28:17-21 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd028.html#17 ), in terms of the Zodiac. 10. See comments on Revelation 4:7; cf. Ernest L. Martin, The Birth of Christ Recahdated, pp. 168f. 11. Farrer, The Revelation of St. John the Divine (Oxford: At the Claren- don Press, 1964), p. 141. 12. It is generally held that Herod the Great died in 4 B. C., and therefore that Christ was born in 6 or 7 B.C. Martin, however, presents a detailed and persuasive case for Herod’s death occurring in 1 B.C. See his Birth of Christ Recalculated, pp. 26-131.

13. Ibid., pp. 146f. What about December 25, the traditional date of the Nativity? As Martin demonstrates, there were numerous startling astronomical phenomena taking place during the years 3-2 B.C. Chief among these celestial events was the fact that Jupiter, recognized by Jews and Gentiles alike as the “Planet of the Messiah:’ was located in Virgo’s womb and standing still, directly over Bethlehem, on December 25, 2 B. C., when the Child was a little over a year old. (Matthew states that the holy family was settled in a house, not in a stable, by the time the Magi visited [Matt. 2:11 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat002.html#11 and http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/2/11.html ]. Moreover, Herod ordered the slaughter of the innocents “from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the Magi” [Matt. 2:16 http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat002.html#16 and
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/2/16.html ], indicating that the Child was no longer a newborn.) For a full account of the astronomical events of 3-2 B.c., see Martin, pp. 4-25, 144-77.
14. Ibid., pp. 152ff.
15. Ibid., p. 158.

From DAYS OF VENGEANCE, by David Chilton
http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/dcdv/dcdv.html

We've gone round and round at our house about whether to celebrate Christmas or not. Don't do as I do, but we decided that WE aren't celebrating the Pagan aspects; we are celebrating that the TRUE LIGHT came into the world even when He entered Mary's womb. John the Baptist was only 6 months in the womb, and even he leapt for joy! It was an earth-shaking event. As Pastor Murray has said, if it weren't for Christmas, a lot of kids would never hear about Jesus. It's also a time for people to get together with families and friends, and to make memories to hold on to when the inevitable separations come, and also to think of and care for the less fortunate. A lot of us get so caught up in the day-to-day struggle, that the important things in life often get shuttled to the back burner. Christmas forces many of us to stop and reflect. It also makes a lot of people nicer than they are the rest of the year. If this only happens once a year, it's unfortunate, but it's better than nothing, and helps set a better tone for the new year. God says that what the devil intends for evil, He will turn to His glory. If we are wrong to celebrate His birth, I hope He will forgive us. We will put more study and prayer into it, and hope He will guide us toward the right choice in the future.

[And we will pray for the kill-joys who thought it would be a good time to put a damper on the day by conjuring up terrorism.]

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Psa/2/12.html and

Deu 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Deu/10/14.html

Oba 1:4 Though thou exalt [thyself] as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Oba/1/4.html

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Psa/2/6.html

+++ JESUS IS GOD [ I ran across this recently, and am going to spend this year giving it out to friends and strangers.] http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch4.htm#t4

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/9/6.html

Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Luk/2/14.html

Kids want me off-line now so they can try out their new computer.