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To: Porterville
I have at least 50 other posts on this thread that outline the tradition conservative approach to stand athwart calls for greater centralization or consolidationism. The crux of your argument seems to be that I used the quote in some sort of intellectual vacuum which is not the case (based on the number of other posts I have on this thread) and also your claim that the quote has no bearing on the topic at hand-- which is a political statement/political ploy in its own right.

It seems clear that in context the quote means simply that those who favor consolidationism in the hopes of increasing security, deserve neither. It is a very stunning quote on the nature of self-defense being a personal responsibility rather than a political program. While this is standard operating procedure for Christian patriots, it's a very interesting quote coming from the Quaker Franklin, geared towards the humanistic members of the society.

The tone you chose required a response geared to the level of not only your choosing, but also fueled by the emotionalism in having just read the Supreme Court betrayed the Constitution this AM.
262 posted on 12/10/2003 8:57:55 AM PST by JohnGalt ("Nothing happened on 9/11 to make the federal government more competent.")
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To: JohnGalt
I don't understand the decision... nobody on any of the post I have visited has been able to clearify exactly what it means. How does it consolidate power on dissipate power??? And does it take power away from unions like the NEA somehow??? Are lobbiest hurt??? Are independent organizations like the NRA hurt??
263 posted on 12/10/2003 9:02:47 AM PST by Porterville (No communist or french)
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To: JohnGalt
it's a very interesting quote coming from the Quaker Franklin, geared towards the humanistic members of the society.

Franklin was no Quaker. Your ignorance of his religious/philosphical positions rather disqualifies you from being an authority on what or who is conservative or isn't. You seem inordinately disposed to labeling people one way or another.

Franklin's, and other of our "Fore Fathers'" (as you write it) positions on religion were not as evangelically orthodox as so many latter day "conservatives" would have it. For a glimpse at Franklin:

To Ezra Stiles, 9 March 1790 You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the creator of the universe. That he governs by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.

267 posted on 12/11/2003 7:25:53 AM PST by witnesstothefall
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