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To: rustbucket
1) The Radical Republicans were not hateful or vindictive toward "the South" -- they wanted nothing more than the kind of democratizing, human rights, free enterprise social transformation the USA carried out in Nazi Germany after WWII. Your Democrat buddy Andrew Johnson was the one who had been clamoring for executions.

2) Your mention of Congress "intervening" attests to your distain for democracy. Since when is Congress "intervening" by exercising its legislative function? I bet you would have loved it if President Clinton had prevented Congress from "intervening" in his running the country.

3) Lincoln did indeed want to overseee Reconstruction without congressional input, but such arogation of power was completely unprecendented in U.S. history. Lincoln doing things himself would have made Stanton's miliatary government approach even easier to carry out.

3) Not allowing rebels to sit in Congress, even before Reconstruction had been completed was not "punishing the South." For example, what if all those southern Senators, who just months before had been shooting U.S. troops, had prevented military appropriations from being passed, ensuring the success of another Confederate rebellion? No, patriotic congressmen were not as stupid as you would have liked them to have been.

4) The Wade-Davis bill was passed almost unanimously by Republicans in Congress; labelling the will of Congress and of the Republican Party as a Radical scheme is a lie.

5) The other sourse you cite states: "a faction of Johnson’s own party, the Republicans" thus discrediting the author and you for citing her as an authority. Though elected as Lincoln's 1864 running mate, Andrew Johnson was a D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T.

There's no point in continuing this discussion further particularly when you feel free to make thing up and cite ignornnt people. We're done.


963 posted on 12/04/2003 6:55:05 AM PST by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
There's no point in continuing this discussion further particularly when you feel free to make thing up and cite ignornnt people. We're done.

What "thing" did I make up? I won't touch the "ignornnt people" comment.

Apparently you are losing the argument, so you attempt to declare victory and run.

Your Democrat buddy Andrew Johnson was the one who had been clamoring for executions.

He's not my "Democrat buddy". I just don't like to see history misrepresented.

My Republican roots are pretty strong, thanks. My father was a Republican County chairman in two states. A brother was minority (Republican) counsel for a Senate committee in Washington DC. A sister-in-law worked for the Republican National Committee. Another brother was a state chairman of college Republicans, and a sister worked on a Republican Congressman's staff in Washington DC. Me? I've gone to county and state Republican conventions, worked as a Republican official at the polls, and walked door-to-door handing out flyers for Republicans.

1) The Radical Republicans were not hateful or vindictive toward "the South"...

Take it up with Welles, a founder of the Republican Party. Welles attributed to Lincoln words to the effect that 'There were men in Congress who, if their motives were good, were nevertheless impracticable, and who possessed feelings of hate and vindictiveness in which he did not sympathize and could not participate.' Welles was there; you were not.

2) Your mention of Congress "intervening" attests to your distain for democracy. Since when is Congress "intervening" by exercising its legislative function?

It was Radical Republicans Wade and Davis who protested Lincoln's interfering with what Congress wanted to do. Is that what you are referring to?

Lincoln had the constitutional right to pocket veto this bill. Radicals Wade and Davis apparently called Lincoln's action unconstitutional and Lincoln a dictatorial usurper.

I prefer a representative republic that obeys its constitution over a democracy or a representative republic that does not obey its constitution.

3) Lincoln did indeed want to overseee Reconstruction without congressional input, but such arogation of power was completely unprecendented in U.S. history. Lincoln doing things himself would have made Stanton's miliatary government approach even easier to carry out.

You are right about Lincoln's arrogation of power. It is one of the things we Southerners complain about on these threads. Apparently though, Lincoln was in favor of civilian governments for the South according to Welles. Military rule would have had to be short term in nature to satisfy Lincoln's desire for quick return to civil state governments.

3) Not allowing rebels to sit in Congress, even before Reconstruction had been completed was not "punishing the South."

Wasn't freedom, that's for sure.

If the South never left the Union as Lincoln argued, it was thus was entitled to its place in Congress as long as it obeyed the laws of the country and the Constitution.

Congress and the Radicals then imposed conditions like passing the unratified 14th Amendment as a requirement for being seated. The only Constitutional requirement for a state was that they have a republican form of government. That's small "r" republican, not capital "R" Republican. Political conditions were being forced on the South, not Constitutional ones.

4) The Wade-Davis bill was passed almost unanimously by Republicans in Congress; labelling the will of Congress and of the Republican Party as a Radical scheme is a lie.

It passed 73 to 59 in the House and 18 to 14 in the Senate. Lincoln's pocket veto of the bill stood.

Where did I characterize the Wade-Davis bill as a Radical scheme? All I noted was that Wade and Davis were Radical Republicans. Was I incorrect?

5) The other sourse you cite states: "a faction of Johnson’s own party, the Republicans" thus discrediting the author and you for citing her as an authority. Though elected as Lincoln's 1864 running mate, Andrew Johnson was a D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T

Yes, I noticed that too. She would have been more correct to label them allies, even though they often disagreed. But, of course, as you know, Johnson was not elected Vice President on a Democrat ticket or a Republican one. He was elected on the same 'National Union Party' ticket as Lincoln.

Have you a source that says there was not disagreement between Lincoln and the Radicals on how to achieve reconstruction?

964 posted on 12/04/2003 12:35:52 PM PST by rustbucket
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