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To: Tribune7; Alamo-Girl
Science is predicated on a creator. It's silly to pretend otherwise.

Science doesn't pretend to argue about ultimate causes, but it does attempt to analyze currently effective causes. The research program that would support ID is indistinguishable from one that would support evolution. There would be no difference in the materials or methods of research. ID proponents might choose different topics on which to spend research dollars, but they would have to have the same goal.

And that goal would be to find the natural chain of causes for phenomena. You cannot assert that something is designed without attempting to rule out natural causes. If and when you get down to bedrock causes -- the theory of everything -- then you can have a deep discussion of why things are the way they are.

234 posted on 11/05/2003 5:03:02 AM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Science doesn't pretend to argue about ultimate causes, but it does attempt to analyze currently effective causes.

If those claiming this stipulated the existence of a creator a whole lot of hostility and suspicion would go away.

235 posted on 11/05/2003 6:13:22 AM PST by Tribune7 (It's not like he let his secretary drown in his car or something.)
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To: js1138; Tribune7; betty boop
Thank you for the heads up to your post, js1138! In the reply, Tribune7 said:

If those claiming this stipulated the existence of a creator a whole lot of hostility and suspicion would go away.

I agree with that statement.

At the moment, because of the way we "do" science (scientific materialism) --- the theory of evolution is used as intellectual authentication by the politically active metaphysical naturalists (atheists) - to promote their agenda which includes such things as bizarre animal rights, infanticide, euthenasia, etc.

This gives the left wing a wrongful political advantage which could perhaps be cured by strong protests to the effect that science does not speak to metaphysics at all and thus no more authenticates atheism than theism.

Scientists do frequently issue such protests - but they are one-sided against theists using science for authentication. I do not recall any such protests against the atheists' misuse.

Back to your original statement, js1138:

Science doesn't pretend to argue about ultimate causes, but it does attempt to analyze currently effective causes. The research program that would support ID is indistinguishable from one that would support evolution. There would be no difference in the materials or methods of research. ID proponents might choose different topics on which to spend research dollars, but they would have to have the same goal.

I agree! As long as ID makes itself an adversary to the explanatory framework of evolution it will make little progress in science though it may have great success in the school boards and such.

Simply put, evolution theory is only a framework and thus any assertion of impossibility can be rationalized to the contrary post hoc within the framework.

IMHO, rather than taking an adversarial position to such a moving target, ID would be more effective supporting the research within conventional science which disputes either of the two primary pillars of evolution theory: random mutation and natural selection - or which looks for answers to the questions not addressed directly by the theory: What is Life?, What is Consciousness?, etc.

It is not difficult to find such research within conventional science: lower (or non) mutability of regulatory control genes, self-organizing complexity, symbolizations, autonomy, biological information content, physics of the mind, etc.

242 posted on 11/05/2003 7:36:33 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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