Replies

donh,

You need to study history a little better. You're just spouting unsupported claims of anti-Catholics.

RE: The Concordat
Eugenio Pacelli publicly and privately warned of the dangers of Nazism both before and after he became pope. He denounced the deportations and persecution of Europe’s Jews and was almost universally recognized, including by the Nazis themselves, as an unrelenting opponent of the National Socialist regime. Throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI’s "Jew-loving" cardinal. It is obvius that Pius XII, far from being "silent," was a persistent critic of Hitler and the Nazi regime.

Critics of Pius XII have long used the Holy See’s 1933 Concordat with Germany to attack him, since Pacelli himself played a major role in negotiating it during the time he served as Pius XI’s Secretary of State. The critics claim that the Concordat silenced German Catholics who otherwise would have opposed Hitler and might have held him in check. But the Concordat was in fact a largely pragmatic and morally-defensible diplomatic measure to protect Catholics within Germany and to ensure the continuity and freedom of the German Catholic Church. The Germans had proposed the Concordat, and for the Vatican to have rejected it out of hand would have been prejudicial to the rights of Catholics in Germany. From the vantage point of German Jews, it was morally defensible as well, since it was signed in July 1933, well before Hitler had begun to enact any of his anti-Semitic legislation or decrees. The widely recognized start of the Holocaust, Kristallnacht, didn't occur until 5 years later in November 1938.

Also, the Concordat did not precipitate the collapse of Germany’s Catholic Center Party. The Center Party had been founded during the pontificate of Pius IX in the nineteenth century to defend Catholics against Bismarck’s campaign against them. The Pope had given it his blessing, and it had become increasingly influential in the decades that followed, serving as a vehicle for lay Catholic participation in German party politics and for the protection of Catholic political and religious interests in German public life. However, its influence had steadily declined during the last years of the Weimar Republic and, as Rychlak has shown, it was almost eliminated by the Nazis in March 1933. Then, on July 5, 1933, two weeks before the Concordat was signed, the party decided to dissolve itself voluntarily. It was thus not Pacelli and his negotiation of the Concordat that caused the party’s political decline and ultimate demise. On the contrary, as even so vociferous a critic as James Carroll has conceded, "even before the Concordat was formally signed, the Center Party had ceased to exist." Numerous respected historians — including the Germans Heinz Hurten, Ludwig Volk, and Konrad Repgen, and the American Stewart Stehlin — have marshaled considerable historical evidence in defense of the Concordat and of Pacelli’s role in negotiating it. Unfortunately, their work has gone largely uncited and undiscussed by most of the Pope’s most vociferous critics.

The Concordat issue doesn't support the claims of anti-Catholics. Any others?

RE: The Concordat Eugenio Pacelli publicly and privately warned of the dangers of Nazism both before and after he became pope. He denounced the deportations and persecution of Europe’s Jews and was almost universally recognized, including by the Nazis themselves, as an unrelenting opponent of the National Socialist regime. Throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI’s "Jew-loving" cardinal. It is obvius that Pius XII, far from being "silent," was a persistent critic of Hitler and the Nazi regime.

None of this answers the specific chages brought in the references I gave you. The ferocity of the nazi reaction is not a measure of the specificity or tellingness of PIUS's remonstrances, which were, as changed, markedly non-specific as to measured catholic response, as compared to what he might have done or said. If you think otherwise, than kindly post your reference to PIUS XII's specific instructions to German catholic prelates, say, to send their birth and marriage records to Timbuctoo, or the nearest fireplace, instead of the SS. Said which, of course, would have been a violation of the Concordat's terms that the catholic germans stay out of politics.

RE: The Concordat Eugenio Pacelli publicly and privately warned of the dangers of Nazism both before and after he became pope. He denounced the deportations and persecution of Europe’s Jews and was almost universally recognized, including by the Nazis themselves, as an unrelenting opponent of the National Socialist regime. Throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI’s "Jew-loving" cardinal. It is obvius that Pius XII, far from being "silent," was a persistent critic of Hitler and the Nazi regime.

None of this answers the specific chages brought in the references I gave you. The ferocity of the nazi reaction is not a measure of the specificity or tellingness of PIUS's remonstrances, which were, as changed, markedly non-specific as to measured catholic response, as compared to what he might have done or said. If you think otherwise, than kindly post your reference to PIUS XII's specific instructions to German catholic prelates, say, to send their birth and marriage records to Timbuctoo, or the nearest fireplace, instead of the SS. Said which, of course, would have been a violation of the Concordat's terms that the catholic germans stay out of politics.

But the Concordat was in fact a largely pragmatic and morally-defensible diplomatic measure to protect Catholics within Germany and to ensure the continuity and freedom of the German Catholic Church.

By taking Nazi money in return for an explicit promise to abstain from political activities in Germany.

From the vantage point of German Jews, it was morally defensible as well, since it was signed in July 1933, well before Hitler had begun to enact any of his anti-Semitic legislation or decrees. The widely recognized start of the Holocaust, Kristallnacht, didn't occur until 5 years later in November 1938.

March 22, 1933 - Nazis open Dachau concentration camp near Munich, to be followed by Buchenwald near Weimar in central Germany, Sachsenhausen near Berlin in northern Germany, and Ravensbrück for women.

March 24, 1933 - German Parliament passes Enabling Act giving Hitler dictatorial powers.

See also - The Rise of Hitler - from Unknown to Dictator of Germany

April 1, 1933 - Nazis stage boycott of Jewish shops and businesses.

April 11, 1933 - Nazis issue a decree defining a non-Aryan as "anyone descended from non-Aryan, especially Jewish, parents or grandparents. One parent or grandparent classifies the descendant as non-Aryan...especially if one parent or grandparent was of the Jewish faith."

April 26, 1933 - The Gestapo is born, created by Hermann Göring in the German state of Prussia.

May 10, 1933 - Burning of books in Berlin and throughout Germany.

July 14, 1933 - Nazi Party is declared the only legal party in Germany; Also, Nazis pass Law to strip Jewish immigrants from Poland of their German citizenship.

In July - Nazis pass law allowing for forced sterilization of those found by a Hereditary Health Court to have genetic defects.

In Sept - Nazis establish Reich Chamber of Culture, then exclude Jews from the Arts.

Sept 29, 1933 - Nazis prohibit Jews from owning land.

Oct 4, 1933 - Jews are prohibited from being newspaper editors.

Nov 24, 1933 - Nazis pass a Law against Habitual and Dangerous Criminals, which allows beggars, the homeless, alcoholics and the unemployed to be sent to concentration camps.

1934

Jan 24, 1934 - Jews are banned from the German Labor Front.

May 17, 1934 - Jews not allowed national health insurance.

June 30, 1934 - The Night of Long Knives occurs as Hitler, Göring and Himmler conduct a purge of the SA (storm trooper) leadership.

July 20, 1934 - The SS (Schutzstaffel) is made an independent organization from the SA.

July 22, 1934 - Jews are prohibited from getting legal qualifications.

Numerous respected historians — including the Germans Heinz Hurten, Ludwig Volk, and Konrad Repgen, and the American Stewart Stehlin — have marshaled considerable historical evidence in defense of the Concordat and of Pacelli’s role in negotiating it. Unfortunately, their work has gone largely uncited and undiscussed by most of the Pope’s most vociferous critics.

Than, by all means, please discuss them. How did an explicit agreement for the church to shut up about the jews help the jews?

The Concordat issue doesn't support the claims of anti-Catholics. Any others?

I'll repeat myself one more time. The Concordat was, amongst other things, an agreement for the catholic church to receive money from nazi's and shut up about political questions. Do you or Carroll, or anyone else think this somehow might have encouraged the Catholic party in germany to continue in existence? The centrists might very well have been feeble by the time of the Concordat, but if you believe that the forbidding catholic political action in germany by agreement is some sort of invigorating spur to the centrist catholic party, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

The Concordat issue doesn't support the claims of anti-Catholics.

In the eyes of catholic apologists.