Posted on 11/03/2003 8:27:06 AM PST by Brian S
Oh, I'd view it diametrically oppositely. Since the church's behavior is blatant and irrefutable, everyone would prefer to concentrate on PIUS's muddled record. For my money it's the "PIUS saved a bunch of jews so lets not give it any more thought", mantra.
I see--so those pictures of church officials giving the nazi salute beside Hitler that I posted, they were actually trying poke Hitler in the eye, I'll bet.
And you keep complaining that Nazis weren't excommunicated. What could that have possibly gained? You seem to be real big on useless pontificating. You must love the U.N.
Well, now, lets not abridge the argument. I complained about a multitude of things the church did to help the nazi's, such as turning over church records to help track down jews. Now, you might think that's "pontificating", but I happen to think that it's indictable as conspiracy to murder.
No, that is not a correct characterization. The church is officially now, as it was since time out of mind, official pro-semitic and anti-jewish. And would appreciate it if the rest of us could just kindly keep this vast separation in mind. PIUS had no trouble being kindly disposed toward semites, just as he had no trouble being fundamentally opposed to jewish religeous doctrine, to such a degree that, when asked about anti-jewish laws in Vichy France, responded that the ban on anti-semitism: Mit, does not imply that there can't be anti-jewish laws.
If helps you to be able to think like this, if you have an unlimited supply of jesuit legal help, I guess.
Now you are just acting juvenile.
Your haltered of the Catholic Church has apparently left you cognitively challenged.
Also, most of what you have posted is hardly damning of the Church.
If he was truly Catholic, devout and believing, why didn't he outlaw all other religions and declare the Catholic Church the State Church of Nazi Germany. He could have, he certainly had the power and will to do such things.
Whoops. My mistake. I hadn't realized you'd stopped bashing Pius XII and moved on to damning the Catholic Church for not waving its magic wand and getting rid of Hitler in 1935. Sorry.
Now that we've established that "making happy kissy-face" by being photographed with Hitler pre-Holocaust is unforgivable, why stop at the Catholic Church? Let's make a list of diplomats and heads of state to bash. Then we'll ask the Catholic Church if we can borrow its magic time machine to rub out those evil people who once met Hitler.
No, I am not, you, or someone you've read has made up a silly story chock full of incorrect facts. Go look in a reputable autobiography or before you ram your foot into your mouth any harder. What I told you was that he was educated by benedictine priests, served as a choir boy, and aspired to the cloth. All you which you can find out in minutes, from highly reputable sources, using Google, if you were so moved.
Maybe he was evil enough to hide behind the catholic faith so he could use religion as a foundation to kill jews and many other innocent people. This man was pure and simply EVIL he was not a man that practiced any form of Christianity and he is dead and gone and the world will not let a person like this rise to power, because the next time G-d's intervention will take over and wipe out the evil you constantly want to talk about.
Hitler was an averagely evil person--not even a psychopath, according to USArmy analysts. He leveraged a lot of jewish hatred in a lot of German and austrian hearts to produce in large scale exactly what that same hatred produced in smaller scale throughout europe for the previous 1400 years.
It is absurd to suggest (as many, such as yourself, would like to believe so as to wash their religion's hands, like Pontias Pilate, of jewish blood) that Hitler imposed the holocaust on Germany single-handed. Those SS propaganda posters that reach back into jewish religeous history for their iconography, all by themselves, ought to make that abundantly clear.
He most certainly did practice at being a catholic, and your thesis about God's intervention strikes a discordant note when one notices that God did, apparently, allow Hitler to rise to power in the first place.
I am informed that the movie tones down the rhetoric in Matthew, which we have been discussing. If that is not so, than I have no grudge with it. If it is so, than I object, for reasons stated at unbelievable length here.
I never stopped bashing PIUS XII, which is a proper subset of damning the Churches anti-jewish history leading up to, and in no small measure responsible for, the holocaust.
waving its magic wand and getting rid of Hitler in 1935. Sorry.
Right. Having signed a Concordat to refrain from attempting to do so, in return for, amongst other things, financial support for the church, several years earlier.
Now that we've established that "making happy kissy-face" by being photographed with Hitler pre-Holocaust
It is unclear when the holocaust started. No one's claim that any particular landmark in time is the start is anything but wind. So, in your opinion, If I look, I won't be able to find pictures of catholic clergy toadying up to Hitler during the Wanasee conference? After Kristalnacht? Is it also your opinion that any act to encourage Hitler's programs directly before the holocaust have no bearing on the question?
is unforgivable, why stop at the Catholic Church? Let's make a list of diplomats and heads of state to bash. Then we'll ask the Catholic Church if we can borrow its magic time machine to rub out those evil people who once met Hitler.
Because "diplomats and heads of state" are not the Shepards of God's kindom on earth, and the self-appointed spokesmen for God's moral word. Would you be in favor of letting a serial killer go if he argued that there are other serial killers out there?
Now you are just acting juvenile.
So your latest defense of the church is that I post in fragments. Wow.
Unlike several of my deponents here, I post the context of the argument I answer--your objection is an absurd attempt at distraction.
So what? An accurate quote does not automatically a devastating argument make.
One last time, Hitler was NOT a psychopath by any reasonable formal definition of the word, as the Army's psychological profile of him states, and as common sense ought to tell you. psychopaths do not spark massive world events due to fervently held beliefs, which Hitler quite obviously had concerning ayrian purity and transcendence and jewish corruption and decadence. Your inability to have noticed this rather starkly obvious fact of history is sad.
Is that right. Well, let me make sure to remedy that. I cite Cornwall's "Constantine's Sword", Goldhagen's "Hitler's willing executioners" and Zucotti's "Under His Very Window". You will find Zucotti's astonishingly well-researched book particularly insightful about one of the issues we've been on about here--whether PIUS XII saved a "handful" or a "fistful" of jews. Zucotti reviewed the recently released vatican archives and other primary source church records, and any other primary sources she could find, to try to discern PIUS XII's hand in the rescue of 800,000 jews, and came up with scant actual evidence of a connection between PIUS's hand and the hand of individual catholics & prelates in this regard. PIUS's defenders answer this by saying "Well, of course there are no records, otherwise the nazi's would have seized them."
So, let me point out that the attachment of PIUS's name to nearly all of those 800,000 saved is securely based on the proud claim that there is no record of it that a critical historian or a judge in court would find compelling.
I do not wish to rehash what I have already said, but, I will encapsulate it briefly: Hitler's anti-semitism was not endorsed by the church. His anti-jewish policies and laws, however, were either endorsed or ignored by a very large fraction of the catholic (and lutheren) clergy and laity of Europe. And PIUS XII passed up many, many opportunites to discourage that, and took one centrally noticable opportunity to encourage it when he signed the Concordat.
Do you know anything about Christianity or do you even care to?
I believe I have demonstrated a fairly reasonable comprehension of christian doctrine on this thread.
My problem is why Nazi's and Hitler are even being discussed in regards to The Passion?
Than I expect you've read nothing of what I said at the start of this argument about the Doctrine of Salvation through the passion of the crucifixion and resurrection being in conflict with the jewish Shema and the historical results of this conflict in the destruction of many jewish communities at the hands of incensed christians.
Do you know that The Gospel of John is being shown all over the country right now, it was totally made by a Jewish Director and all the cast memebers are Jewish which is the truth from the BIBLE.
Which proves what?
I do not see anybody jumping out of there skin over this film, I am sure it is because Hollywood is scared to death that a Major Moviestar is showing a movie about G-d and maybe this will be the trend for the future, so much for secular Hollywood maybe you like the smut that is out there but millions of us don't and are sick of people trying to throw G-d out of everything.
I really don't think Hollywood is quaking in it's boots at at the thought of a movie about religion. I seem to recall that "The Ten Commandments" did pretty well.
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