Immigrants From The Other Side (Clovis Is Solutrean?)

CSFA ^ | 11-3-2003 | Dennis Sanford

[shamusotoole]

It would be interesting to know if Kennewick, Windover and other Paleo-American finds do indeed have the "X" hablotype. In my searches, this has been talked about on DNA websites, but results have apparently not been published.

[blam]

"It would be interesting to know if Kennewick, Windover and other Paleo-American finds do indeed have the "X" hablotype. "

I agree, including Spirit Cave Man. We're still waiting for the judge to rule on Kennewick Man...I read somewhere that the ruling is expected in weeks.

I'm beginning to think the Kennewick Man type will be different from the discoveries on the east coast of the US, such as Windover, Meadowcroft and Topper.

[shamusotoole]

If you remember, I asked once for the various skulls to be pictured together. I am only an amateur observer, but all appeared to be similar, even "Lucia" from the Dillahay South American site. I'm referring to skull only and not the reconstructed faces. Perhaps you are correct that Kennewick is not closely related, but my untrained eye sees similarity. However, you be the judge of that.

Useful DNA was recovered from under one of Kennewick's mokars, I believe. The ruling should cover that too.

It is fun to be on the leading edge of these discoveries. As they say on CSI, "Follow the evidence!" I add my thanks to the many for your wonderful posts.

[blam]

"Perhaps you are correct that Kennewick is not closely related, but my untrained eye sees similarity. "

They may all originate from a common population but seperated by thousands of years. I think one group took the Siberian route and one (or more groups) took the Atlantic route. I think the Kennewick Man type will prove to be the oldest and most dissimilar. Just an opinion.

[Slicksadick]

Clovis points

Solutrean points

[Cronos]

It's becoming quite clear that Europeans were here first. Asians followed and either murdered the Europeans' descendants to extinction or overwhelmed them

There was no such thing as European/Asia at that time. The Solutrean groups/ Cro Magnon groups would be related to the Middle Eastern, Indian groups who are SEmitic, Indo-Aryan. The Native 'mericans in North America seem quite related to Mongoloid groups but those in the South, well...

Europe isn't really a continent even in terms of culture with culture being divided in a big swathe from India, through Persia through anatolia to Spain (the Aryanic group) and the Semitic and hamitic (Egypt, Ethiopia) groups in the Mid East being in cotnact right since 4000BC. The Far East (China, Japan, Korea) seem to be in a different cultural zone.

The NAtive AMericans may well have been a mingling of groups from the East and the West of Eurasia, since, though they do have the characteristics of Mongoloids, certain southern Americans show some similarities to the Caucasian groups.

THe anti-white prejudice is stupid since 'whiteness' doesn't relate to race, as, if we consider Aryans purely to be whites, then Slavs aren't white and Persians, Indians, should be considered white.

[blam]

"The Far East (China, Japan, Korea) seem to be in a different cultural zone."

Haven't you overlooked the Jomon and Ainu groups? (...and more recently (2-4,000 years ago) the Xiongnu, Han and Hakka Chinese)

[Cronos]

The Ainu -- aren't they like nearly decimated? The dominant group in China IS the Han, but I dunno abotu the others, only that the Chinese tend to smother other groups, like the Tibetans who are NOT chinese.

[Cobra Scott]

Keep in mind that as polar glaciation built up, the massive weight pushed the crust downward, and the areas further south bulged outward. As the glaciation recedes even today, the northeastern US is "sinking" due to glacial rebound.

Another thing, about early explorers, they weren't necesarily on a mission to find, log and report back. They would probably be well prepared to move to a new land and stay there, or move even farther away. Even if carried to the caribbean accidentally, they had most of what they needed to survive at hand. What I think would add to this debate is a discussion of their cultural tendencies when hunting and fishing. If they did so as families, they would have even less reason to return to their homelands once they found a nice place to set up.

[blam]

"As the glaciation recedes even today, the northeastern US is "sinking" due to glacial rebound."

You mean "rising." England is a perfect example, It's going like a see-saw.

[blam]

"The Ainu -- aren't they like nearly decimated? "

There are about 10,000 alive today

There was a mixing of the Chinese (Han) and these people thousands of years ago in the Tarim basin. This mixing produced, I believe, the Scythians, Xiongnu and the Hakka. The Hakka migrated all the way across China into south China, Korea and Japan. Their records and legends indicate that during their migration anyone with Caucasian features were executed. (many tried to conceal their appearance)

I also believe that some mixing of all these groups later produced the Huns.( also with possibly an Iranian element.)

An excellent book to read on this subject is The Tarim Mummies by Victor Mair.

[blam]

Who Are The Hakkas

"Genetically speaking, some Hakka people have clearly inherited some non-Han features such as wavy hair and high nose bridge."

[Cobra Scott]

No, the northeastern US is sinking. The weight of glaciation pushed it outward, now it is rebounding.

Further north, yes, it is rising. Maybe we are saying the same thing differently?

[blam]

See all that ice in the north? It was so heavy that it weighted everything down and pushed up areas in the south (like a see-saw). Now, the south is sinking and the north is rising.

[Cobra Scott]

You are correct. I should have said the mid-atlantic seaboard. My southern roots are showing. I was referring to the region south of Long Island (a terminal morraine). To me, in vernacular, that is the Northeast. My bad.

[blam]

"My southern roots are showing. "

No problem, Southern roots are good.

[Carry_Okie]

I notice that this figure is getting larger. I saw one earlier today that placed it at 450ft.

Remember this? It's coral strata from the Pacific Coast off San Francisco.

I would bet that the numbers for the depthe of the Pacific seabed should be adjusted upward to correct for the uplift on the edge of the Pacific Plate (there are credible estimates that the Santa Cruz Mountains would be twice as high as Everest but for the rate of erosion), so perhaps your 450 ft estimate isn't far off.

[blam]

"(there are credible estimates that the Santa Cruz Mountains would be twice as high as Everest but for the rate of erosion)"

Highway 17 would sure be a lot more exciting. We still have much to learn.

[Carry_Okie]

Unless I am mistaken, it would seem that I am not on your "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" list. If this is my overisght, would you be so kind as to make the addition?

[farmfriend]

You are correct, you are not presently on the GGG list as you had not requested to be on it. Consider yourself added though. It is catching up to my rights list for number of names though. Popular list.