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Er, if I may, I’d like to make a comment on your comment, bondserv. You said:

No one who has study the Bible to the point that they are literate in both the Old and New Testaments can say that the Bible leaves room for the Theory of Evolution to be true.

I would modify your statement slightly as follows:

No one who has studied and believed the Bible to the point that they are literate in both the Old and New Testaments would say that the Bible leaves room for the theory of evolution to be the entire truth of the matter concerning how biological life arose.

(I realize that the evolutionist posters will be quick to mention that the theory doesn’t extend to include either biogenesis or abiogenesis and thus is not the entire truth anyway.)

There are those of us Christians who believe that Adam was the first ensouled man, that the Genesis story is played out in both heaven and earth, that Adam was banished to mortality, that “the death” speaks not just to physical death but the second death as well. (Revelation 20 and 21)

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Corinthians 15:54-57

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. - Revelation 2:11

You have a testimony based on your interpretation of the Scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So do I.

Since our difference does not deny the deity of Christ or the authority of the Word and the Scriptures, I presume the difference is according to God’s will in the matter and thus wish you well. I pray that you will feel the same towards me.

wow ... amazing !

To: Aquinasfan

I was in D.C. one summer and read that there was going to be a "street fair" in Adams-Morgan. I went to it. About 4 blocks were blocked from traffic. There was a double row of tables, with people selling things, etc. At one table were two women with a sign "Palm Reading." I foolishly sat down - and one of the women told me things most of my friends don't know. Profound, deep stuff. Three years after that I became a Christian. Demons know things about us, but the good news is, they can't do anything without Our Lord authorizing it. BTW demons are hierarchical and territorial.

89 posted on 11/02/2003 2:24 AM PST by 185JHP ( Not much quag. Even less mire.)

I hope this post won't come across as disrespectful, because it is not intended to be.

It seems to me, as a believer, that it is presumptuous to assume that I can ever know *HOW* God did what He did.

Now, here comes the part that may be offensive. Lately, I've been wondering what mental image people have of creation. And for some reason, I keep thinking of that transporter thingie in Star Trek, that beams people down to planets. Seriously, do some people imagine that God beamed Adam and Eve down to Planet Earth? Or, like a magician, waved His hands, and *poof!*, Adam appeared, and later *poof!* Eve appeared, in a microsecond?

The mental image I use sometimes of creation is of a really great pool player (Jackie Gleason as Minnesota Fats) hitting a cluster of tightly bunched up matter with a pool cue, and it then all bangs into each other and spins, and goes hurtling off into space.

My husband likes a Gary Larsen cartoon, where an old man with a beard is pulling a cake shaped like Earth out of an oven, and the tag line is, "something tells me this thing is only half baked."

I mean, we really don't know, do we? Nobody but God was there at the beginning.

Even if He sat us down and explained it in detail, no matter how hard we tried, we probably couldn't understand it anyway.

So, it seems to me that the real argument between us believers is about whether there are more things in Heaven, Earth, and the Universe than are mentioned specifically in the Bible.

There is a side argument between believers and non-believers. My belief is that non-believers who keep arguing are trying to convince themselves, but secretly cannot convince themselves, that God doesn't exist. So they really are asking for enlightenment, and should not be treated disrespectfully.

And there is a third problem, which is that some believers want Genesis to be taught as if it were scientific proof of that which it contains, and it is not.

Oh, and maybe the last issue, which isn't really a problem, which is that some people just love to argue.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Very, very well said! The unique gifts each of us have been given in accordance with God's plan for each of our lives are tools to be used in the realization of that plan. Some of us are born to be theologians, scientists and engineers, doctors, lawyers, and even some to be garbage men or politicians. Each is given the skills and understanding required to fulfill those duties.

Forgive me for such a delayed response to your post.

Let us start each idea with what you imply or believe, then show what the Bible says.

You believe that Adam was the first “ensouled” man, which leads most to believe you think there were other men before Adam who weren’t “ensouled”. Thus leaving the implied Scriptural room for the evolution from animal to man.
The Bible says regarding Adam:

1 Cor 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Gen 3:23
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 2:8
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

For what you say to be true the Bible would need to say:
The first man that God placed a soul into was Adam. Prior to Adam God created soulless men.
Adam was other than dust prior to the fall, after the fall he became earthy in order that Jesus could become an earthy man and die on the Cross.
God did not breath life into the men prior to Adam for they were like unto animals.

You imply there was death on the earth before Adam.
The Bible says:

Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Cor 15:21
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Isa 11:7-8
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For what you say to be true the Bible would need to say:
Animals have been killing one another before Adam. The death of “ensouled” man came by Adam’s sin, but death and the shedding of animal blood by other hungry animals on earth was part of God’s original creation prior to the fall. Without sin there is death of non-ensouled creatures. The wages of sin is death, only applies to accountable “ensouled” creatures.

I haven’t seen that in there. As you well know, we need to take the clear areas of scripture to help us understand the fuzzy areas. The sacrificial shedding of the blood of an animal is significant for the covering of sin, as you know God preformed the first sacrifice to cover Adam's shame (nakedness because of sin). God needed to kill an animal, because He didn’t have any naturally dead carcasses tanning on a tree branch. Abel understood that the death of an animal was potent. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin.

Take away the choice of death that Adam made and make it a natural occurance of creation seperate from sin and you remove the greatest significance of Christ’s death on the cross.