Whatever!!! Was that mature enough? Listen, don’t project your problems on to me, I’m not the one who practices perversion.
You present me with an outdated DSM to refute, which I consider refuted by subsequent DSM's.
So what SCIENCE refutes the DSMII???… the DSMIII, DSMIV??? Hehehe… Is there some cite, appendix or supplement in III and IV that debunks II??? The answer is NO! You don’t make any sense and that’s not how SCIENCE works. There are valid empirical studies that prove your pathology a disorder and so far none have been debunked. NONE! So I ask you again, what SCIENCE makes the DSMII invalid?
I'll also ignore any outdated medical information you send me about leeches and bloodletting being a cure for mental illness.
Ignoring is a coping mechanism and part of your pathology, I can understand why you need to do so.
All it covers are her ideas on whether or not homosexuality is biological. She certainly doesn't feel it is pathology.
I never claimed she did, testimonial, long term incarceration, so called bisexuality and the FACT that there are ex-gays proves your pathology is chosen behavior. That’s all, no more no less.
She says that the drive to have sex is biological, but who you have sex with is choice.
Sodomy is not sex, it doesn’t make children no matter how much you pretend. Homosexuals have hijacked enough vocabulary i.e. “gay”, etc., I guess it’s your need to candy cote perversion.
On top of it all, she thinks lesbians can be "recruited" from the straight ranks. I don't know any lesbians who feel this is the case.
More anecdotal evidence hmm???
There's no science ruling biology out. You can't prove a negative.
It has nothing to do with proving a negative and everything to do with finding a genetic marker that is responsible for behavior…you simply can’t. This kind of wishful thinking does nothing more than perpetuate a lie, and once again… “There's no science ruling biology out for incest, bestiality, pedophilia or just list your favorite paraphilia.
However, studies have been done where some tinkering with genetics leads male fruit flies to attempt mating with other male fruit flies.
Although this study unequivocally shows that sexual orientation is heritable and can be changed by manipulation of a single gene, there is one problem: they are fruit flies! Because the Drosophila courtship is based on pheromones, it is not possible to draw comparisons between fruit fly and human sexual orientation. Furthermore, homosexuality in humans is largely based on complex behavioral interactions, a complicating feature that Drosophila lack.
So if people "caught up" in homosexuality are not "suffering", it's not pathology. There is no suffering in my life blah, blah, blah…
Nope, it’s simply the criterion the wackos at the APA use to determine behavioral disorder. Applied to other paraphilias we can say the same…’So if people"caught up" in homosexuality bestiality, incest or pedophilia are not "suffering", it's not pathology.’ See how easy it works? “Suffering”, BTW, in clinical terms means anxiety, poor psychosocial functioning and low self-esteem…so if you’re a pedophile, bestial or incestual and feel fine about it, you must be OK as far as the APA is concerned.
Your "science" is doing God's work.
Wrong again…many phycicans, health care workers ect. probably hold this feeling, don’t you think? It has no bearing on science.
He's showing here that maybe "science" is not all that's on his mind, in matters of psychology.
Yeah, maybe you’re right, it’s all one big conspiracy, many clinical psychiatrists are out to get the poor little perverts so they can’t have any fun.
Bitter. Not uncommon amongst IDers and other theologically based "science" adherents.
Where’s your proof of “theologically based science"? Oh that’s right you have none. Well here’s all the “theologically based science" you’ll need, cited and peer reviewed.
Damn hippies with their tie dye and free sex.. and homos with their conspiracy, there's a cabal of very bright homos and they're controlling our thoughts... grumble grumble"
Great sophistry but I don’t think it speaks for Dr. Socarides or me in the way you think. He’s talking about the effects of the sexual revolution on our society, abortion used as contraception, the Gaystapo’s tort suits and GLSEN’s indoctrination of out children. He has a reasonable concern don’t you think?
That certainly IS astounding. I've never known anyone to do it, but he seems to be attributing this statement to enough people that it would be significant. Do you know anyone who ever said such a thing?
No not personally but don’t you think he’s talking about the liberal philosophical indoctrination which includes “tolerance” of perversion kids get in our Universities?
BINGO!! There's your science.
You don’t think physicians think of themselves as healers both physically and spiritually? Oh that’s right, you’re referring to the big religious conspiracy again aren’t you. See scientific link above for the science part, this “article” is insight and opinion from a professional.
Plus, he's basing his knowledge of homosexuality on his own anecdotal evidence as a psychiatrist.
You really should research before you make such asinine statements, it makes you look foolish.
Of course all the homosexuals he has dealt with in his illustrious career were ones who NEED THERAPY. Tainted sample.
Aside from the fact that ALL homosexuals NEED THERAPY, I believe his clients came to him wanting to change, I fail to see any point here.
I deserve an honorary Ph.D from whatever school gave him one, because this article is sad.
ad hominem noted.
Basically, our Pastoral Dr. Socarides is "preaching to the choir."
Nope, just helping those who want help. You on the other hand could stand some “preaching” yourself.
I don't need to project problems on to you. Anyone can read this thread.
"So what SCIENCE refutes the DSMII??"
The reason homosexuality was removed from the DSM is because it doesn't meet the criteria for disorder. I don't know how to post links, but I took this from http://www.thebody.com/apa/apafacts.html :
"For a mental condition to be considered a psychiatric disorder, it should either regularly cause emotional distress or regularly be associated with clinically significant impairment of social functioning. These experts found that homosexuality does not meet these criteria."
Whether or not the stimulus for change was socio-political doesn't matter. In the end, you can not show that all homosexuals are regularly distressed by their homosexuality, or that it causes impairment of social functioning.
"Ignoring is a coping mechanism and part of your pathology, I can understand why you need to do so."
I'm not ignoring you or your links. I'm unimpressed and unconvinced by them.
"I never claimed she did, testimonial, long term incarceration, so called bisexuality and the FACT that there are ex-gays proves your pathology is chosen behavior."
Behavior is chosen. Predisposition is not. The Pope chooses not to have sex with women. Can he still be heterosexual?
"Sodomy is not sex, it doesn’t make children no matter how much you pretend."
The definition of sex has nothing to do with whether procreation occurs, and I never pretended that homosexual sex results in children. What an odd thought to attribute to me.
"Homosexuals have hijacked enough vocabulary i.e. “gay”, etc., I guess it’s your need to candy cote perversion."
Gays didn't hijack the word "gay". Slang just appears and goes mainstream.
I don't know any lesbians who feel this is the case. "More anecdotal evidence hmm???"
Yes. This is a conversation, and I'm telling you what my experience is.
"It has nothing to do with proving a negative and everything to do with finding a genetic marker that is responsible for behavior…you simply can’t."
There hasn't been anything definite for human sexuality, but that doesn't rule it out.. especially when you CAN find genetic factors for fruit flies.
"Although this study unequivocally shows that sexual orientation is heritable and can be changed by manipulation of a single gene, there is one problem: they are fruit flies!"
This study isn't claiming that it's proof that homosexuality is genetic for humans.. just that there are genetic factors for fruit flies' sexual behavior, which indicates a possibility that the same may be true for humans.
"Nope, it’s simply the criterion the wackos at the APA use to determine behavioral disorder."
Oh, those crazy "wackos" at the APA.. always trying to define and clarify what makes a behavioral disorder a behavioral disorder.
"Applied to other paraphilias we can say the same…’So if people"caught up" in homosexuality bestiality, incest or pedophilia are not "suffering", it's not pathology.’ See how easy it works?"
I'm not sure of the APA's position on these, but there is quite a bit of separation from these and homosexuality. We've been over this before. There really isn't a comparison, any more than there is a comparison to heterosexuality. Incest and pedophilia (most incest actually falls into pedophilia) have consent issues, and pedophilia is extremely harmful to the children. Bestiality also has consent issues (can animals truly consent?) but more than that, I consider it abuse of an animal.
"Wrong again…many phycicans, health care workers ect. probably hold this feeling, don’t you think? It has no bearing on science."
You said that "science" agrees with you, and posted a link to that article. There was little in the way of science there, it was quite informal and included several "spiritual" references.
"Yeah, maybe you’re right, it’s all one big conspiracy, many clinical psychiatrists are out to get the poor little perverts so they can’t have any fun."
Just suggesting that his faith may be part of why he feels so strongly that homosexuality is a disorder, since he brings it up so often in this article.
"Where’s your proof of “theologically based science"? Oh that’s right you have none."
You sent me to an article, I'm telling you why I don't think it's "science". You linked to it as SCIENCE AGREEING WITH YOU. It is just the professional opinion of a psychiatrist... and many more disagree with him.
"He’s talking about the effects of the sexual revolution on our society, abortion used as contraception, the Gaystapo’s tort suits and GLSEN’s indoctrination of out children. He has a reasonable concern don’t you think?"
So that's what this is about? Not whether homosexuality is always detrimental and can therefore be classified as a disorder, but a cultural war? He's griping about society sure, but that has nothing to do with whether or not gay people can lead non-disordered lives. Stick to the topic.
Do you know anyone who ever said such a thing? "No not personally but don’t you think he’s talking about the liberal philosophical indoctrination which includes “tolerance” of perversion kids get in our Universities?"
Tolerance is not the same as creating homosexuals. I think you and he both are confusing "relaxed attitudes creating homosexuals." with what it really is.."relaxed societal attitudes about homosexuality being conducive to more homosexuals coming out of the closet."
"You don’t think physicians think of themselves as healers both physically and spiritually?"
Sure, BUT THIS IS YOUR "SCIENCE AGREES WITH ME" ARTICLE.
A friend of mine invited me to sit in during his defense for his Ph.D. His advisor took him aside afterwards and told him, "Well done, but about your paper.. if you think God helped you write it, that's good but leave it out and thank him in private."
"this “article” is insight and opinion from a professional."
And plenty of psychiatric professionals disagree with him.
Plus, he's basing his knowledge of homosexuality on his own anecdotal evidence as a psychiatrist. "You really should research before you make such asinine statements, it makes you look foolish."
I based my statement on his article. How much homework do you think I should do on this one guy?
"Aside from the fact that ALL homosexuals NEED THERAPY, I believe his clients came to him wanting to change, I fail to see any point here."
Prove that all homosexuals need therapy. If HIS clients wish to change, that's up to them. I wish them the best. That doesn't mean that most of us wish to change, or see any need to, or even have the ability.
"I deserve an honorary Ph.D from whatever school gave him one, because this article is sad. "ad hominem noted."
Oh, so you DO recognize ad hominems. I was wondering, because you tend to slip them into conversation effortlessly and as though you think they're germane to conversation.
"Nope, just helping those who want help. You on the other hand could stand some “preaching” yourself."
Ad hominem noted.